Poster | Thread | rookie Member
Joined: 2003/6/3 Posts: 4821 Savannah TN
| Re: | | I wrote:
Quote:
To me this is really what water baptism represents. To be wash by the living water, cleanses us from the pollution of Satan's world.
I need to clarify this thought. Sorry.
Jesus testified:
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."
To me, to be immerced in His living water, is to be baptized and filled with His Spirit. The living water comes by hearing His word.
John 5:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live."
If we are filled with His word, we are filled with His Spirit. That is if we hear His word. To me Scripture teaches that there is a difference between those who hear His word, and those who hear and don't obey.
In Christ Jeff _________________ Jeff Marshalek
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| 2004/11/18 15:46 | Profile | rookie Member
Joined: 2003/6/3 Posts: 4821 Savannah TN
| Re: | | I started reading the book of Acts this week and a thought came to mind. It is concerning Pentecost. Also my son prepared a lesson this weekend for our family. He covered the life of Joseph. These two circumstances brought together a question. I began to search this thread to see if this topic was covered but I soon lost patience with my search.
Peter testifies that: Acts 2:
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
The manifestation of the out pouring of the Holy Spirit spoken of by Joel, concerns visions,dreams, and prophesy. Many talk of speaking in tongues, yet Joel speaks of visions and dreams and prophesy.
As the book of Acts unfolds, we are given witness to visions, dreams, and prophesy. In similar ways, Joseph was given visions, dreams, and prophesy.
Why do we concentrate on tongues and not visions, dreams, and prophesy?
In Christ Jeff _________________ Jeff Marshalek
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| 2004/12/20 13:14 | Profile | RobertW Member
Joined: 2004/2/12 Posts: 4636 St. Joseph, Missouri
| Re: | | Hi Bro. Jeff,
Quote:
Why do we concentrate on tongues and not visions, dreams, and prophesy?
There are many aspects of this question so I will let others weigh in on it. I think that the 'turn off' to visions, dreams, and prophesy has been the abuse that has occured via the use of them. It has burned a lot of people until they don't feel they can trust any means God uses to break through and reveal himself to them. So many 'flakey' things have muddied the waters. Discernment has been thrown to the wind in many circles resulting in a major crackdown of trust.
Even in Pentecostal circles we are not seeing folks receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking on tongues. The rate of atrition will leave Pantecostalism a mere 'name only' in time. It is a MAJOR concern for Classical Pentecostals. There was a time when 'tongues' was a big issue in our circles; yet many places of worship are in no wise like unto the Pentecostalism of old. The emphasis on holiness and the Baptism in the Spirit is dwindling by the day.
God Bless,
-Robert
_________________ Robert Wurtz II
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| 2004/12/20 13:36 | Profile | KingJimmy Member
Joined: 2003/5/8 Posts: 4419 Charlotte, NC
| Re: | | Quote:
The rate of atrition will leave Pantecostalism a mere 'name only' in time.
I dare say that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is mostly already nothing more but a mere paper doctrine in America. One Pentecostal church I went to for nearly 3 years, I only saw one person come to salvation, and none received the baptism of the Spirit. There is very little life anymore in the Pentecostal circles. _________________ Jimmy H
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| 2004/12/20 20:38 | Profile | RobertW Member
Joined: 2004/2/12 Posts: 4636 St. Joseph, Missouri
| Re: | | Quote:
There is very little life anymore in the Pentecostal circles
This is a sad reality. It is ironic that the first lesson I taught this year to our adults at church was on the birthplace of the modern day Pentecostal movement under Charles Parham of Bethel Bible College. That place is called "Stone's Folly" and its in Topeka, Kansas. And then last week Topeka was again in the news where the baby had been found that had been taken from its mothers womb. The woman called her husband from Topeka to tell him she had given birth.
I did a study of Topeka once and found that there is a good possibility that the root word for Topeka is actually "[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4048&forum=36&0]TOPHET[/url]." There are some radical so called 'preachers' there that told of it so I did some investigating. I found a document that referred to topeka as Tophet in the early days of the town. As Pentecostal's we used to say that we could move next door to 'hell' and have revival if God poured out His Spirit.
This week I see the contrast of just where we are in America and especially in Pentecostal circles. Will we have another outpouring of the Spirit that leads us to a deep walk with God in holiness and sobriety or will we have the madness of sin that was all but personified in this act of terror upon that pregnant lady. Topeka comes to my mind. What a contrast between the two! What will it be? More horror or more Holy Spirit? We decide. God wants to pour out His Spirit. Will it be revival or mere survival?
God Bless,
-Robert _________________ Robert Wurtz II
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| 2004/12/21 7:48 | Profile | rookie Member
Joined: 2003/6/3 Posts: 4821 Savannah TN
| Re: | | In the book, The Heavenly Man, there are many testimonies of visions, dream, and prophesy. The manifestations of the out pouring of the Holy Spirit in China resembles the church of Acts.
Why is this out pouring not happening in America or Europe?
In Christ Jeff _________________ Jeff Marshalek
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| 2005/1/1 12:44 | Profile | RobertW Member
Joined: 2004/2/12 Posts: 4636 St. Joseph, Missouri
| Re: | | Quote:
Why is this out pouring not happening in America or Europe?
Hi Bro. Jeff,
One thing to consider is that the so-called 'prophets' and others that promote bizarre manifestations have muddied the waters until when God does speak to one of us in a dream or vision or prophesy we dare not tell it for fear of being 'tarred and feathered' with the others. Especially here in Kansas City you have to be carefull what you say. The KC prophets handed that to us. I don't want to be labeled with them. :-(
God is doing these things here in America and I'm sure in England,etc., but for the most part the people are keeping the stuff between them and God. God has shown me a lot of stuff that I will keep to myself, but where you will see it is in the urgency with which I minister.
God Bless,
-Robert _________________ Robert Wurtz II
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| 2005/1/1 16:06 | Profile | philologos Member
Joined: 2003/7/18 Posts: 6566 Reading, UK
| Baptism in the Spirit | | I came across this recently and thought it might interest some. It is an exposition of [url=http://www.pfrs.org/commentary/1cor12_13.html]1 Cor 12:13[/url]. I can't commend the whole of the site but thought this article was worth passing on. _________________ Ron Bailey
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| 2005/5/21 5:13 | Profile | ReceivedText Member
Joined: 2005/4/22 Posts: 257 Seattle, Washington, USA
| Re: Baptism in (with) the Spirit | | Quote:
That is simply wrong, and implies that the Holy Spirit is the person baptizing the individual. If that is what Paul meant, he would have used the preposition "dia," which means "by" or "through" and indicates agency. ... This fictitious "baptism" has been called the "Baptism of the Spirit" by many groups. There is no such thing as a baptism by the Spirit.
I received my bachelor's degree in theology from the national (USA) Assemblies of God Bible college, Central Bible College. They really made sure and point this out to me. They said that it is "incorrect" Scripturally to refer to the Acts 2:4 experience as the baptism "of" the Sprit. They pointed out that it is correct to say baptism "with" or "in" the Holy Ghost, but not "of" since Jesus does the baptism. (Lk. 3:16) Great point here.
Now I wonder if you guys can help me here. In my pursuit of truth as found in the Bible, I have recently drifted away from a "second work" theology of baptistic Pentecostalism. The reason for this is the Scriptural foundation I used to lean on for a post-resurrection born again experience for the disciples was Jn. 20:21 where Jesus breathed on them and told them to receive the Holy Ghost. Well, I was reading along in John and saw something that I should have seen long ago:
"... for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." (Jn. 16:7)
This really messed me up (in a good way). I realized, "Hey, Jesus had not gone away in Jn. 20:21 and therefore the Comforter was not availible for indwelling (he "shall be in you") until Jesus went away.
And true to form we see that on the day of Pentecost, Peter testifies that Pentecost was the first time the Holy Ghost was poured out.
Acts 2:33 "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."
Sounds a lot like John 14:16,17a:
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth..."
So my theology is different now. OK, to baptism and my question. In the article, Warner makes this statement:
Quote:
It is the "one baptism" Paul mentioned in Ephesians 4:5. Humans beings act on Christ's behalf to submerge the body in water, and simultaneously Christ Himself baptized the human spirit in the Holy Spirit.
I really have a problem receiving this because of Acts 8:12 "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women." So they were baptized. But it wasn't until later that we read that they received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 8:14 "Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."
So it seems pretty clear to me that they didn't receive the Holy Ghost in baptism. I wrote to Warner about this and he said that this was a giving of spiritual gifts, but that they received the Holy Ghost in baptism in water. I wrote him back and told him that I had a really hard time with that because the scripture here says nothing of "gifts" but speaks of the Holy Ghost Himself. Verse 16 is pretty clear to me, "For as yet he was fallen upon none of them."
So what is the deal? When does a person receive the Holy Ghost? This is essential for us to know because the Scripture tells us that if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his (Rom 8:9). We also are told that the way we know that Jesus is in us and we are in Him is by the Spirit he has given us (1 Jn. 3:24; 4:13).
I have recently submitted to the Word when it teaches that not only repentance and faith (both essential), but baptism is "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38) and is how we are united with Christ's death, burial and resurrection (Rom. 6:1ff). Right now it seems that the first three are what we do "towards God" and giving the Spirit is what He does "towards us". The first three seem to be [b]us receiving (accepting) Him[/b]. The last (receiving the Spirit) seems to be [b]Him receiving (accepting) us.[/b]
"Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him." (2 Corinthians 5:9)
This is my heart's cry.
I really value your input here. Coming out of classical Pentecostal doctrines is quite a new thing for me (past few years). I just want to walk in truth.
Thanks again for your input.
Blessings,
RT |
| 2005/5/21 15:10 | Profile | philologos Member
Joined: 2003/7/18 Posts: 6566 Reading, UK
| Re: | | RT I share something of your background and something of your pilgrimage. The body of your last post is similar to my own conclusions but with one important distinction. I don't think the integration of 'baptism in water' and 'baptism in Spirit' is really so watertight . (sorry about that metaphor!!) There are some traditional positions regarding the place of water baptism.
The Roman Catholics, of course, believe in baptismal regeneration. This gets pretty close to the position adopted by quite a few that 'water baptism' is an essential part of 'full initiation into Christ'. It sounds good until you ask how far am I initiated into Christ if I have not submitted to water-baptism?
The Baptist position, traditionally, is that water baptism is a public testimony to faith in Christ and the public initiation into 'church'. The consequence of this is that while the Catholic water-baptises in order to secure salvation, the Baptist only water-baptises when he is sure salvation has already taken place.
I don't think either of these fit the biblical data. It seems to me that water-baptism was part of the public commitment to the Lordship of Christ and the response of a 'good' conscience towards God. It is the God ordained pattern of human response to the word of God. It is man's response to the word of God and the NT pattern seems to be that God's response to man's response was Spirit-baptism.
I do not think water-baptism is at the forefront of Paul's thought in Rom 6. Rom. 6:4 we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk. This is Young's Literal Translation. Notice the phrase 'the baptism (in)to the death'. I believe this is Spirit-baptism.Col. 2:12 being buried with him in the baptism, in which also ye rose with [him] through the faith of the working of God, who did raise him out of the dead. in Young's has the same construction and I believe this is a reference to Spirit-baptism too. The construction 'the baptism' is found in these passages Matt. 20:22-23; 21:25; Mark 10:38-39; 11:30; Luke 7:29; 20:4; Acts 1:22; 10:37; 18:25; Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12 and it is worth checking them out in Youngs to get the feel of them.
The conscious reception of the Holy Spirit is such a norm in the NT that it becomes the obvious question and the indisputable illustration.
Acts 19:2 he said unto them, The Holy Spirit did ye receive having believed? and they said unto him, But we did not even hear whether there is any Holy Spirit;
Gal. 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
The references to 'for remission of sins' are as follows Matt. 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, Luke 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. In each instance the word 'for' is 'eis'. If it meant us to understand that baptism was necessary for remission of sins the Greek preposition would have been 'ina'; in order that. 'eis' is the preposition of movement. It can mean 'towards this end'. In other words it can indicate the intention/target rather than the direct cause. The article I hypertexted shows this use of 'eis' in 1 Cor 12:13. This part of the article certainly squares with my understanding of this use of the Greek preposition 'eis'. _________________ Ron Bailey
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| 2005/5/21 18:04 | Profile |
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