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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The doctrine called "Lordship salvation"?

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TaylorOtwell
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Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

When the word "repent" occurs in Scripture, I think it would be helpful to determine what the audience is supposed to be repenting from. The word "repent" in and of itself does not mean much unless it is connected to a specific mindset/action.

For example, you can repent of doing good. You can repent of loving others. On the other hand, you can repent of unbelief. You can repent of stealing.

It seems to me that the Biblical position of repentance is that of changing one's mind about Christ. Instead of rebelling against Christ in unbelief, the person now repents of that unbelief and embraces Christ. Of course, this is worked by the Spirit. Repentance is also a forsaking of sin, and a declaring of war on sin.

I believe that where I (and historic Christianity) would differ from the teaching that one must rid themselves of all sin prior to being saved is that repentance can be genuine while remaining imperfect. In other words, an individual can genuinely (sincerely) repent in an imperfect way (without becoming sinless). Scripturally, I believe this is the only way to understand repentance as being something that happens both during conversion and after conversion. This view harmonizes with Scriptures that teach that after conversion the Christian continues this war against sin.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/11/2 18:57Profile
Koheleth
Member



Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re:

Quote:

anonymity wrote:
This is what I am seeking to address: From what I understand this doctrine teaches that one must stop sinning/repent before they can be forgiven and saved.



The so-called "Lordship Salvation" issue has nothing to do with stopping sinning before you can be saved by Jesus. Probably the best book on the topic is John MacArthur's "The Gospel According to Jesus." A very worthwhile read if you are interested in something outside of the Bible to put together the "Lordship Salvation" perspective for you. It even has a Q&A in the appendix, so I think it will answer your questions far better than a discussion on SI, as it was carefully written over a number of years.

 2009/11/2 21:36Profile









 Re:

When you give your soul to Jesus to save, you also give Him your life to rule. When Jesus becomes the Savior of your soul, He also becomes the Lord of your life.

 2009/11/2 21:51









 Re:

Quote:
From what I understand this doctrine teaches that one must stop sinning/repent before they can be forgiven and saved.

However, a sinner cannot stop sinning until after coming to Christ and being born again receiving a new nature which can overcome the old sin enslaved one.

Since it is therefore an impossibility for a sinner to stop sinning/repent it is therefore a hinderance towards one getting saved to teach this.



You are right in saying that a sinner cannot find freedom from sin until they are first saved by Christ. Only through the power of the Holy Spirit working in regeneration can a person overcome sin. They must have a new nature before than can have a new manner of living for the glory of God. So in this regard, it is certainly true that it is a tremendous hindrance to tell sinners to "stop sinning" and then come to Jesus, because such is absolutely impossible, and will produce hopelessness at worst, and Pharisees at best, and never result in real salvation because it is tantamount to salvation by morality, self-effort and works.

However, with that being said, that it not what traditional "Lordship salvation" teaches or believes. While there may be extremists here and there who teach sinless perfection or that you have to stop sinning completely before you can be saved, there are also many real teachers of the Word of God who hold firmly to a "Lordship" position.

What they teach is that you cannot divide Jesus in parts and receive Him as Savior but reject Him as Lord. If you reject Him as Lord then you cannot expect to receive the benefits of His saving work. According to this belief, true saving faith that results in salvation is a faith of submission which manifests itself by willing, loving, and obedient submission to Christ as one's Lord, Master and King. Therefore, to reject obedience and to reject Christ as Lord of your life is to evidence that you have never had true saving faith, despite the fact that you may profess Him with your mouth.

In other words, while obedience does not save, it is the essential fruit and evidence of having been saved.

[i]Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.[/i]

Perhaps the best known defender of this (correct) view is John Macarthur in his books, "The Gospel According to Jesus" and the follow-up, "The Gospel According to the Apostles". They are excellent books and well worth the read. He also has some messages on his website which are preached based on the message of those books.

 2009/11/3 0:29
anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Taylor,

I agree with you mostly I believe on this topic. That repentance has to be defined and does not always mean stop sinning until it (repentance) is attached to something.

I believe that when Scripture says repent and believe that it does not mean stop sinning and believe. It means repent from not putting your faith in Christ and in this repentance from sins will follow and correspond.

The place where I think I might differ is that I do not believe a sinner needs to have their heart regenerated by the Holy Spirit before they can believe. One might say well if a sinner if able to believe without God making them to then it is a work. However, Paul tells us in Romans that work is not a work and is indeed the very opposite.

 2009/11/3 20:47Profile
anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Koheleth,

I thought of that book. I believe I read it a long time ago, but cant find it to re review. Plus, I find conversing often a more efficient way to seek things out sometimes then reading in a one way fashion.

I think though that this doctrine does have to do with stop sinning. For it says that one must stop sinning or repent from sinning before they can come to Christ.

 2009/11/3 20:50Profile
anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Truefaithsave,

I agree that those who are truly saved have Christ as their Lord as a necessity.

I am though saying that one cannot stop sinning before coming to Christ. That they are to repent before coming to Christ, but not of works but of unbelief.

Then after Christ purchases them He is then their Lord.

 2009/11/3 20:53Profile
anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Josef,

Quote:
You are right in saying that a sinner cannot find freedom from sin until they are first saved by Christ. Only through the power of the Holy Spirit working in regeneration can a person overcome sin. They must have a new nature before than can have a new manner of living for the glory of God. So in this regard, it is certainly true that it is a tremendous hindrance to tell sinners to "stop sinning" and then come to Jesus, because such is absolutely impossible, and will produce hopelessness at worst, and Pharisees at best, and never result in real salvation because it is tantamount to salvation by morality, self-effort and works.


Amen.

Quote:
However, with that being said, that it not what traditional "Lordship salvation" teaches or believes. While there may be extremists here and there who teach sinless perfection or that you have to stop sinning completely before you can be saved, there are also many real teachers of the Word of God who hold firmly to a "Lordship" position.


Well, I thought, they taught that one must repent of sin and then come to Christ. For many from what I understand teach repent from sin, confess your sins, and believe on Christ. However, if one has to repent from sin before coming to Christ then they cannot and it is a work.

 2009/11/3 20:59Profile
anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

I know that Christ is Lord of those who are saved and agree with that as essential and always.

I know that many teach that we are to repent of sins/stop sinning, confess sins, and believe on Christ to be saved.

I heard that Lordship Salvation adherents hold this this view that one must repent of sins/stop sinning/forsake sins before being saved.

I am disagreeing with this because one cannot repent from sin/forsake sin/stop sinning before they are born again.

I believe that repentance means to repent from unbelief and surrender to the grace of Christ which will in result lead to a change of life.

Then there are also those who will say that a sinner cannot believe until God regenerates their heart or the Holy Spirit causes them to. However, Paul tells us in Romans that faith is not a work and is indeed the very opposite. Therefore, I believe a sinner can believe on Christ and do so having it not be a work.

In a sense when a sinner comes to Christ they do forsake their sin. For they are coming to Christ saying heal me from my sin like a Leper. They are saying I believe help my unbelief.

Again, just to try and make a clear and comprehensive post. I once witnessed to a girl. She told me she was not yet "ready" to come to Christ. By "ready" she meant she was not righteous enough. And, in another sense she meant she was not ready to leave all her sin. However, she needed to be taught that only Christ can free her from sin. And, if only repentance is emphatically preached to her well what of preaching Christ and having His glory draw her? I told her a Leper does not clean themselves and then come to Christ. They come to Christ and He cleanses them. It then clicked with her and she decided to seek Christ. So, I believe the hinderance is two fold. One, that a sinner cannot stop sinning before coming to Christ and so therefore will not. Second, that if we only preach repentance or mainly preach it in an unbalanced way that sinners will have no draw. John wrote His Gospel speaking of Jesus that men might believe and when we preach Jesus the light is shone of the glory of God and men are drawn.

 2009/11/3 21:18Profile









 Re:

What makes you think that a sinner can repent of unbelief but that a sinner cannot repent of sins? I have never read anywhere in the Bible that sinners cannot repent of their sins, but I have read where God commands them to and is grieved when they do not.

 2009/11/3 21:34





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