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ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi IWantAnguish...

Quote:
Do you trust the CDC, FDA, US Department of Health, and the giant pharmaceutical companies?


I don't "trust" them verbatim. Rather, I consider the [u]same[/u] evidence that is presented to them and then consider whether or not it is valid. It is all about testing everything...and holding on to that which is good. So far, the arguments against vaccinations do not seem to withstand much medical scrutiny whatsoever.

At the same time, I can ask you if you trust the sources that you have gathered that helped you reach your own opinion. Yet, it isn't the sources that are as important as is the results from the medical research and clinical trials.
Quote:
Do you know how much profit these companies are making off of this mass vaccination?


Is this a legitimate question? Do you know the specific answer yourself? Or are you alleging that the entire industry is somehow in cahoots with the CDC, FDA, US Department of Health? For the amount of time and effort that is spent looking for a vaccine, I think that the $15 that it costs to prevent the swine flu is actually quite inexpensive. In addition, the vaccine is provided free to low income Americans.

Still, it isn't helpful to the discussion if we shift the argument from the medical question about the effectiveness of the swine flu vaccination to accusations of capitalistic profiteering of the research companies that create the vaccine.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/28 14:47Profile
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3156


 Re:

"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen."
- 1 Timothy 6:20-21

EDIT: Forgive me Chris. This arrow was aimed at you, but it should have been aimed at the enemy. God bless you!

 2009/10/28 14:53Profile
IWantAnguish
Member



Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343
VCU @ Richmond, VA

 Re:

Billions of dollars handed over by US citizens to private companies for a rushed vaccine to protect against a weak virus.

A 'national emergency' flu that kills less people than the normal flu.

What's the big deal? Honestly.

The media has hyped this thing up so much its ridiculous.


_________________
Sam Yoon

 2009/10/28 15:07Profile
nearthecross
Member



Joined: 2009/5/13
Posts: 74


 Re:

Quote:
I would warn you that Dr. Mercola (the owner and business owner of the website that you linked and cited) is NOT an MD (he is an DO). He has been under investigation in the past for marketing drugs that were not approved by the FDA and embraces (and even markets) medical practices that are not shown to hold much if any medical weight, (such as Eastern herbal and alternative medical procedures [such as acupuncture]). He is a proponent of a wide array of controversial techniques (such as the controversial "Emotional Freedom Technique" that delves into "energy fields" and Chinese acupuncture techniques).



I certainly don't agree with the EFT and other new age nonsense he believes in, but there is a lot of great information on his site.

Yes, he has been accused of quackery. I believe you obtained that information from quackwatch.com, right? The site of Stephen Barret, MD, who condemns basically ALL in alternative medicine as quacks! To be fair, he has pointed out some real quacks and frauds. However, he clearly is very biased and on a mission to discredit all in alternative medicine.
And yet surprisingly (and then again...not so surprisingly), there's hardly any articles in his site exposing the quacks and scams in the PHARMACEUTICAL industry!

Read a good article about him here:
http://www.raysahelian.com/quackwatch.html

I've known nutritionists and hollistic medicine practicioners to joke about that site, saying that you haven't "made it" into the world of alternative medicine until you get your name on Quackwatch.com! :-)

Dr T. Collin Campbell, professor emeritus of nutritional biochemistry at Cornell University, and one of the world's most foremost authorities on nutrition, said this about Barret's rejection of alternative medicine:

"I've known Stephen Barret's work for many years...He and some of his colleagues have been taking that approach...supposedly identifying who are quacks and who are not. I really strongly disagree with his opinions. For one thing he's very Maccarthyist, in the sense that somehow he and others can decide what's a quack and what's not. In the earlier days, for example, that group, including Stephen Barret, took a strong stand against dietary recommendations to consume more vegetables and fruits and grains. They got involved in the American Council on Science and Health, to be specific. And the American Council on Science and Health is basically supported by Industry. [u]They're looking out for industrial interests[/u]."

 2009/10/28 15:12Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi IWantAnguish...

Again, the diligent concern is that this could turn into another mutated form of H1N1...like the 1918 H1N1 flu pandemic that ultimately killed 50 Million people around the world. The rapid spread of this particular strain IS of concern to the medical community, because it mirrors the early rate of the 1918 pandemic. That early strain happened to mutate into something far more deadly.

This is what the "big deal" is about. While the media may have hyped it, it is still something that bears scrutiny.

Your accusation about the pharmaceutical companies is somewhat disingenuous. First, you are claiming that it is a "weak virus," a claim which is highly dubious at best and lacks any sort of credible medical opinion whatsoever. Secondly, you are claiming that this vaccine was "rushed." It has followed the exact same procedures as other vaccines for seasonal influenza strains. Finally, I don't know where you are getting your "billions of dollars handed over by US citizens" for this flu vaccine. The "private companies" have actually donated millions of doses to the elderly and poor.

If every single American (300 Million) were to pay $15 for the vaccine, it would accumulate to just over $4.5 Billion. Of course, the hospitals, doctors, pharmacies and clinics that actually give the vaccine also must pay their employees. In addition, this figure must include the cost of research, development, production and distribution of 300 Million doses of vaccine...as well as the need to educate the public against myths and misleading rumors. Thus, the total "profits" are much less than this figure. I must ask: Do you have a real figure for your claim? Or are you simply repeating a accusatory rumor?

We must not be given to rumors. As believers, if we are going to make specific claims, we should do our best to be accurate and attempt to provide ample evidence to validate our claims. In addition, we should be willing to perform the proper research necessary to "test everything" that we hear or read.

It is easy to point the finger at who we are "trusting" when we consider the vaccination process, but the same question can be asked to those who are against it too.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/28 15:41Profile
IWantAnguish
Member



Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343
VCU @ Richmond, VA

 Re:

I was referring to the US citizens who paid for the vaccines through the Federal Government, which had to buy the vaccines from the private corporations; not the additional out of pocket amount of however much the vaccine cost an individual citizen to get their personal vaccination.

[url=http://abcnews.go.com/Business/big-business-swine-flu/story?id=8820642]Here's one of many links.[/url]

As an economics major, its easy to spot the game of supply and demand.


_________________
Sam Yoon

 2009/10/28 15:49Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi IWantAnguish...

Quote:
I was referring to the US citizens who paid for the vaccines through the Federal Government, which had to buy the vaccines from the private corporations; not the additional out of pocket amount of however much the vaccine cost an individual citizen to get their personal vaccination.


That's fine...but it still does not address the fact that the pharmaceutical companies (or the millions of Americans who invest in those companies) are not getting "rich" from the swine flu vaccination. This is, after all, a free market economy. The pharmaceutical companies aren't a charity. They have to get the money to research, develop, manufacture and provide 300 Million vaccinations from somewhere.

The $1.5 Billion from the federal government is pretty slim when you consider the amount of money spent on other government projects. In fact, the reinforcement of a single bridge near my home will cost nearly that same amount! In addition, we should also consider the cost of doing nothing. Sure, perhaps the mostly non-medical critics are correct and this is a "weak" strain of the H1N1 flu and nothing "bad" will happen. However, most medical experts feel that the risk of mutation is just too great.

50 Million people died from the 1918 H1N1 flu pandemic. This is certainly not a game. I suppose that if we could ask any of those who lost loved ones from that outbreak, they would agree.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/28 16:03Profile
nearthecross
Member



Joined: 2009/5/13
Posts: 74


 Re:

Quote:
50 Million people died from the 1918 H1N1 flu pandemic. This is certainly not a game. I suppose that if we could ask any of those who lost loved ones from that outbreak, they would agree.



How do you know this to be true? Sources, please? "Most doctors generally assume this to be true" is not good enough. I want facts, data, that clearly demonstrate that the people living in 1918 died of H1N1 and there were no other factors involved.

 2009/10/28 16:12Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi nearthecross...

Quote:
How do you know this to be true? Sources, please? "Most doctors generally assume this to be true" is not good enough. I want facts, data, that clearly demonstrate that the people living in 1918 died of H1N1 and there were no other factors involved.



Sure! In addition to looking it up in your local Encyclopedia or history book, you can consider the following links:

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol12no01/05-0979.htm

http://virus.stanford.edu/uda/

http://www.cdc.gov/EID/content/13/4/590.htm

http://www.webcitation.org/5gZqOpdgM

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/120718156/HTMLSTART

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/influenza_main.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/media/pressrel/r051005.htm

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/influenza/index.html

http://www.dmacdigest.com/flu1918.html

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol12no01/05-1370.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=HPDI_30wRsEC

[url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19834526?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=1]The New Zealand Medical Journal: Drowning as a result of pandemic influenza (1918 pandemic)[/url]

[url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19809872?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=6]The Journal of Viruses and Genes: An update on swine-origin influenza virus A/H1N1[/url]

[url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19809504?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=7]The Public Library of Science: Reassortment Patterns in Swine Influenza Viruses[/url]

[url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19797251?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=10]The Journal of Health Affairs: Lessons From The 1918-19 U.S. Influenza Pandemic[/url]

[url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19788357?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=11]The Journal of Clinical Infectious Diseases:
Salicylates and pandemic influenza mortality, 1918-1919 pharmacology, pathology, and historic evidence[/url]

[url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19768421?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=15]Current Topics in Microbiology and Immunization: Prioritization of pandemic influenza vaccine - rationale and strategy for decision making[/url]

[url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19707848?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=20]Journal of Neural Transmission: The influenza pandemic of 1918/19 and encephalitis lethargica: epidemiology and symptoms[/url]

These are some of the articles that I have read through. Some of them require access to PubMed database articles. Let me know if you would like to see more! Perhaps you could include the peer reviewed articles and peer reviewed studies that say otherwise?


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/28 16:47Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3400
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Mercola

Quote:
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
I would warn you that Dr. Mercola (the owner and business owner of the website that you linked and cited) is NOT an MD (he is an DO).


Center for Primary Care: [url=http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/primary-care/education/]Univ. of Rochester Medical Center[/url]

[b]DOs and MDs are alike in many ways:[/b]

Some DOs also use osteopathic manipulative treatment, or OMT. This is a technique in which the doctor uses his or her hands to help diagnose the injury or illness. Manipulations may then be used to improve circulation and nervous system functioning, to help the body heal itself.

[url=http://www.osteohome.com/SubPages/WhyChoose.html]The Osteopathic Home Page[/url]

The time spent in medical school and residency programs is virtually identical for DOs and MDs. DOs spend four years in medical school,

Osteopathic medical education places more emphasis on preventive medicine, body structure, osteopathic treatment and the importance of family practice. More than [b]75%[/b] of the DOs in the United States are in family practice, as opposed to only [b]25%[/b] of the MDs.

Osteopathic physicians, also trained in the use of drugs and surgery, [u]believe strongly in the self-regulating, self-healing, and self-repairing ability of the body[/u]. DOs are more likely to promote the body's own ability to heal itself through means as safe, non-intrusive and with a few side effects as possible.

There is much more but you can go to the website and read it for yourself!


Quote:
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
He has been under investigation in the past for marketing drugs that were not approved by the FDA


The FDA has done that to a lot of people going the alternative route because they do their best to look busy trying to save us all the while trying to convince us "where would we be without" the pharmaceutical industry. lol

FOR MYSELF... going the alternative route has helped me much more than going the chemotherapy route ** but that was a very personal decision that I had to make for myself after much prayer. I hate putting shots or pills in my body. I have stopped eating sugar and even stopped wearing deodorant! No worries though, I DO wear organic deodorant, it doesn't last as long but I do not mind putting it on again half way through the day... at least I'm not putting all that aluminum in my body. (edit)One thing I had noticed, sometimes I don't need any extra deodorant because of the things I've stopped eating. Stuff like that makes sense to me!(/edit)

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
Hosea 4:6

Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge:
Isaiah 5:13

The fear of the Lord is THE way and knowledge of the holy is wonderful but I've been thinking that if we die before our time because we didn't care enough to get healthy so we can live longer to declare the works of the Lord, what good are we to our family?

You are young yet chris, I've hit the big five O; when I was young and vibrant like you, no one could have told me either. I don't blame you for thinking we are wacko's but if we are still here when you begin to hear your bones crack and catch; I hope you think back on these threads and how much fun you made of us!! LOL


_________________
Lisa

 2009/10/28 18:00Profile





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