SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Inbred Sin Is Not Removed By Conversion

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 Next Page )
PosterThread
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Quote:

truefaithsav wrote:
Why is it that whenever I make a good point, using Scriptures, those points are completely ignored and the topic is switched to, "are you living without sin?" Is it because you cannot explain or refute the Scriptures that I posted?

I saw this same tactic used in other thread when we were discussing the moral character of the Apostle Paul. Instead of explaining or refuting the Scriptures I gave, which taught Paul was living a holy life, those were completley ignored and the question was asked "Are you living free from sin?"

The point was that the Apostle Paul was living free from sin. Just like now the point is that inward sin is an avoidable choice, as the Bible abundantly and repeatedly teaches.

Regarding the question, "Do you sin" my answer is that I do not usually sin. It is not my habit or practice. By the grace of God, and the influence of Jesus Christ in my life, I do not sin every day, week, or even every month. I have sinned since becoming a Christian, but I didn't have to and if I didn't repent I would have perished. I plan on going the rest of my life without sinning and then I plan on going all of eternity without sinning.

Now back to the topic:

Quote:
It is our own free and personal choice to allow sin to be inside of us or not: Romans 6:12, Job 11:14, Matthew 23:26, Ecclesiastes 11:10 . Notice the emphasis on our own ability. It says "let not sin" and "put away". It is within our ability to allow ourselves to be inwardly sinful or inwardly holy.



Before sin there is temptation (James 1:14-15). With temptation there is a way of escape (1 Cor. 10:13). Therefore we never have to sin, inwardly or outwardly. God is good!



There is no need to refute any Scriptures you quoted because we all know that the Word of God is true. The Scriptures that say that the grace of God, the redeeming sacrifice of the Lord Jesus, and the power of the indwelling Spirit are able to keep us from sin is true - no one denies that.

But that enabling power to keep us from sin can only work when the believer is 100% given in submission to God - and this is the point of contention. For other Scriptures (1 Jn 1:5-10) tell us that it is not possible to maintain 100% communion with the Spirit because we continue to live in a vessel of flesh. In this passage we are warned to recognize the truth of this and not ignore the sin in our lives out of pride. Jesus also taught against such pride to his disciples:

[i]Lk 18:9-14 [b]To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable[/b]: [color=CC3300]“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘[u]God, have mercy on me, a sinner[/u].’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”[/color][/i]

It is good that you are at least willing to admit that you have sinned after you came to Christ. As to your claim that you don't even sin once a month...I hope that is not just pride rearing its ugly head. I would rejoice in God if your claim is indeed true, as God does know the truth. A whole month without a flash of anger, no rash words spoken, no wayward thoughts, no sinful doubts, no acts of omission, no thoughts of envy? I seriously doubt it (unless you're posting from within a glorified body and sitting with Elijah and Moses in heaven).

 2009/10/26 18:27Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Leo_Grace wrote:
A whole month without a flash of anger, no rash words spoken, no wayward thoughts, no sinful doubts, no acts of omission, no thoughts of envy?

Anger is not a sin.

Rash words, acts of omission, thoughts of envy... are avoidable by choice.

All thoughts are not your own; Even Jesus had a thought of turning stones into bread, however, that was not His own thought, but induced by the Devil.
We may have a bad thought, but we do not sin untill we make it our own by dwelling on it.

All doubts are not sin, but may being carefull.

Quote:
I seriously doubt it

[b]1 Corinthians 13:7b[/b] [color=990000]...Love believes all things, hopes all things...[/color]
IOW, One must believe and hope the best of another...

 2009/10/26 18:48Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Quote:

Logic wrote:
Quote:
Leo_Grace wrote:
A whole month without a flash of anger, no rash words spoken, no wayward thoughts, no sinful doubts, no acts of omission, no thoughts of envy?

Anger is not a sin.

Rash words, acts of omission, thoughts of envy... are avoidable by choice.

All thoughts are not your own; Even Jesus had a thought of turning stones into bread, however, that was not His own thought, but induced by the Devil.
We may have a bad thought, but we do not sin untill we make it our own by dwelling on it.

All doubts are not sin, but may being carefull.

Quote:
I seriously doubt it

[b]1 Corinthians 13:7b[/b] [color=990000]...Love believes all things, hopes all things...[/color]
IOW, One must believe and hope the best of another...



So it is you who defines what is sin? LOL! If I could define what is sin for me, then I could fix it so that I would not sin even in one year! Anyway, do I therefore take it then, that when you say that you sin less than once a month, it means that you commit murder, or adultery, or steal less than once a month? Anybody can do better than that.

[i]1Co 13:6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the [b]truth[/b].[/i]

We must speak the truth to each other in love.

 2009/10/26 19:14Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

As I walked out the church I had been attending for over 10 years, I crossed the road and prayed Father I know you said (not going to share what he said because it's what he choose me for) I don't know how you are going to do it but I believe you do it, but I am not going back to that church.

The very next step the Holy Spirit spoke to me and said "You'll be just like Job". Not the best thing to hear the Holy Spirit say to you.

Fast forward a few years, at the I was working in a country in West Africa I work 28 days on 28 days off but I wasn't going on with God, not attending church in a back slidden state. In this country I contract a viral infection this infection causes your skin to break out in blisters.

Looking at my skin I remember what the Holy Spirit spoke to me "You'll be just like Job".
So I decide it's time to fast and pray to get back into a place to hear from God.

After the breaking the Fast it was getting time to get ready for my time to return to West Africa, I wanted to take some material back with me so I started searching the internet to down load. This is when I first came across Sermon Index. I found sermons of Duncan Campbell one of which was his personnel testimony.

On the plane after we got our meal they dimmed the lights and I put on my headphones and listened to Duncan's testimony.

He gets to a point where he says "Go for God whatever it takes" the Holy Spirit uses these words burst the dam in me. I get up and run to the toilet at the back of the plane. I am now in the toilet on my knees sobbing and praying in complete brokenness.

This brokenness was with me for the 28 days while I was in West Africa and every time I got on knees I just wept and sobbed and submitted myself to God.

During that time I read the book of Job a lot in it I saw where God did a work in Job although Job was declared by God to be "perfect" I noticed that in Job 42:5 where Job declares that before he had heard of God with his ear but now hi eyes see him. This told me that there was a work that needed to be done in men’s hearts a work just like Duncan had testified about. It a cleansing work of the heart as Jesus said the “blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God”

So with that I ask God to cleanse my heart when praying I became aware of a system of sin that is living within me, that system is so wrapped up in my being that you believe it is you. I find the words to describe it hard to put across maybe one day I will get a better way to describe it but I now know it’s there and needs to be dealt with.

So there my testimony on why I came to believe what I believe about the sinful nature that you still retain after conversion.

Earlier in the post a brother mentioned revival, in the move of God that’s coming Holiness heart purity in God’s people is going to play a massive part. The teachings of Holiness and Holiness heart purity have been lost in the church today and that's why the church is in the pitiful condition it's in.

What we have today in church is Carnal men leading Carnal men who have never paid the price to get a clean heart and then we wonder how worldly ways of doing things have entered into the church.

It's a form of godliness but denies the power that God can cleanse us a give us a clean heart perfect heart in this life. Christians are lovers of self rather that lovers of God. It's only with a clean heart will we ever be able to live life the more excellent way which Paul describes in 1 Cor 13.

Your old man will always hinder you and seek you drag you back, that's the reason why we are so bent on backsliding because of him, he is the resistance to doing the will of God in your life and he is always at work seeking to get his own way he the old man is always seeking to make himself the Lord of your life in place of the new man Christ. He is the reason why there so much division and strife in churches and until we deal with him it will always be that way with you.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2009/10/26 20:49Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Leo_Grace wrote:
Quote:
Logic wrote:
Anger is not a sin.

Rash words, acts of omission, thoughts of envy... are avoidable by choice.

All thoughts are not your own; Even Jesus had a thought of turning stones into bread, however, that was not His own thought, but induced by the Devil.
We may have a bad thought, but we do not sin untill we make it our own by dwelling on it.

All doubts are not sin, but may being carefull.

So it is you who defines what is sin?

No, The Bible does.
Whatever is not of faith is sin. Romans 14:23
All mankind are able to have faith.

Knowingly transgressing the law is sin. 1John 3:4

Knowing (and able) to do good (when responcible to do it) and not doing it is sin. James 4:17
Knowing that Jesus did not heal all (do good) He saw that were sick (John 5).

All unrighteousness is sin. 1John 5:17

Quote:
Anyway, do I therefore take it then, that when you say that you sin less than once a month, it means that you commit murder, or adultery, or steal less than once a month? Anybody can do better than that.

Not those particular sins.
I may slander someone or I may covet something I know that God will not give me...etc...

 2009/10/27 13:47Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
murrcolr wrote:
I became aware of a system of sin that is living within me, that system is so wrapped up in my being that you believe it is you. I find the words to describe it hard to put across maybe one day I will get a better way to describe it but I now know it’s there and needs to be dealt with.

That "system of sin", or as Paul put it, “law of sin” from Romans 7:23 which the law of his "members" (flesh) brings him into.

The “law of sin”, or as you put it “system of sin” in this verse is the demands of our own fleshly desires & affections against known law that bring us in opposition to God which separates us from Him.

The “law of sin” includes the inability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM.
Remember this, for it is important to remember!

 2009/10/27 14:03Profile
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

AbideinHim wrote:
Brothers, There is much confusion concerning sin and the sin nature within a Christian.



Yes I agree so that why I stared the post to help guys like you, here is a sermon from Spurgeon hope it helps you with your confusion.

I have a challenge for you I ask that you would seek God in what I am posting rather than regurgitate what you have been taught. You'll be susprised of the answer he will give you.

Delivered on Sabbath Morning, June 1, 1856, by the REV. C. H. Spurgeon.

"Then Job answered the Lord and said, Behold, I am vile."—Job 40:3-4.



I'm curious if Logic or Trufaithsav ever responded in substance to this sermon? This was a great read by the way.

 2009/10/30 13:46Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
ceedub wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
AbideinHim wrote:
Brothers, There is much confusion concerning sin and the sin nature within a Christian.

Quote:
murrcolr wrote:
Yes I agree so that why I stared the post to help guys like you, here is a sermon from Spurgeon hope it helps you with your confusion.

I have a challenge for you I ask that you would seek God in what I am posting rather than regurgitate what you have been taught. You'll be surprised of the answer he will give you.

Delivered on Sabbath Morning, June 1, 1856, by the REV. C. H. Spurgeon.

"Then Job answered the Lord and said, Behold, I am vile."—Job 40:3-4.

The FACT, the great and terrible fact, that EVEN THE RIGHTEOUS HAVE IN THEM EVIL NATURES. Job said, "Behold, I am vile." He did not always know it.

I'm curious if Logic or Trufaithsav ever responded in substance to this sermon? This was a great read by the way.

Job wasn't saying that he was "vile" as being wretchedly bad, repulsive or disgusting, morally debased, depraved, or despicable, foul or filthy.

He wasn't claiming that he had an "evil nature"

Job was responding to God about chapters 38-39. Which God is asking, V:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?"
V:12 "Have you commanded the morning since your days began; and caused the dawn to know its place."
V:19-20 "Where is the way where light dwells? And as for darkness, where is its place, that you should take it to its domain, and that you should know the paths to its home?"

This is not showing the moral make up (inbred sin) of Job for him to respond, "I am a wretch"

But Job's responded as saying that he is so very unwise and small in understanding & knowledge in comparison to God and His wisdom, understanding & knowledge.

Job said, "I am vile"
IOW:
"I am small, abated, very little in understanding, wisdom & knowledg in comparison to your wisdom, understanding & knowledge Oh great God."

Again, I repeat:
It is evidently that you are confusing the flesh to be something as "inbred sin". This is wrong because you making sin something which it is not

Sin is either a verb or attitude of the heart which we, by our own personal choice are guilty of.

Sin is always to be guilty of & always able to be repented of.
[b]IF[/b] sin is "inbred", then it can not be a fault which anyone is guilty of, nor can it be repented of.
This means the so called "inbred sin" is not really sin but a flaw of creation; we are victims of "inbred sin" and not really criminals.

We must understand about the flesh that it is still "good" as God called it in the beginning; which means "useful or serving its purpose, good for which it is created to do."

The flesh will give pleasure because of the senses. The flesh is amoral; it takes pleasure in what ever & however, good or bad, morally or immorally for it has no mind to discern. This is unchangeable, it will remain the same even after we are saved; the flesh needs to be done away with. That will happen in the resurrection.

Furthermore, the term "inbred" means to have by birth, however, sin can not be inherited. It is not anything in the blood or genetic like a disease & even hair or eye colored which is passed down from birth. Sin is not anything to be born with.

 2009/10/30 14:31Profile
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

So, Job's only problem is that he isn't smart enough before God. The flesh is 'amoral'. Spurgeon is dead wrong entirely.

That would mean that when Isaiah and Peter were undone in the Lord's presence it was because they weren't as smart as God as well?

Maybe John was misguided in his gnostic theme in his epistles?


Do no little red flags ever wave in your mind? No little sirens going off that maybe it's you that has confused this issue and not the rest of Christianity?

I agree that sometimes the masses can get it wrong, but honestly, do you ever entertain the least notion that you might be wrong?

And also, did you honestly read Spurgeon's message as you were asked?

 2009/10/30 14:54Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
ceedub wrote:
So, Job's only problem is that he isn't smart enough before God.

Smart enough?
Now your just complaining about my response with out any good rebuttal.

Quote:
The flesh is 'amoral'.

Yes, can you prove otherwise?
Saying that the flesh is evil is Platonism.


Quote:
Spurgeon is dead wrong entirely.

Quote:
Spurgeon said:
Now, I hold that there is in every Christian two natures, as distinct as were the two natures of the God-Man Christ Jesus. There is one nature which cannot sin, because it is born of God—a spiritual nature, coming directly from heaven, as pure and as perfect as God himself, who is the author of it; and there is also in man that ancient nature which, by the fall of Adam, hath become altogether vile, corrupt, sinful, and devilish. There remains in the heart of the Christian a nature which cannot do that which is right, any more than it could before regeneration, and which is as evil as it was before the new birth—as sinful, as altogether hostile to God's laws, as ever it was

This is a form of Gnosticism; that man is dualistic in nature.

Dualism goes back to *Platonism and Neo-Platonism which developed and spread the idea of an opposition between spirit and matter, spirit being the higher, purer, and eternal principle, whereas matter was the lower and imperfect form of being, subject to change and corruption. ([url=http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0006_0_05429.html]Source[/url])


Quote:
That would mean that when Isaiah and Peter were undone in the Lord's presence it was because they weren't as smart as God as well?

Peter was not even saved yet when he said, "Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord."
He was a sinful man as unsaved people are.

As for Isaiah, Why do you think that God has a live coal touch his lips had to take away his iniquity and his sin be purged?
Because it hadn't yet to the knowledge of Isaiah, otherwise this would have been superfluous and not needed.
If so, Isaiah would have had confidence before the Lord. (Heb 9:14 & 10:22)

Quote:
Maybe John was misguided in his Gnostic theme in his epistles?

Why say that?

Quote:
Do no little red flags ever wave in your mind? No little sirens going off that maybe it's you that has confused this issue and not the rest of Christianity?

It's not the "rest of Christianity", but those who hold to the fiction of a sin nature.
The sin nature theory criminalizes God.
God is the one who gives man his nature.

Your claiming that God gives mankind a nature which He hates and causes mankind to sin against Him.
The "sin nature" makes mankind not to be culpable for his own sins because he was born unable to not sin.

Our nature comes from what we are, which is human; we have a human nature (not a "sin nature"); and that is to mature and to bear fruit.

Our fruit, weather sin or righteousness comes from what we love or what we put our affections on.

Quote:
I agree that sometimes the masses can get it wrong, but honestly, do you ever entertain the least notion that you might be wrong?

I did when I first started to think this way.
But as I prayed & studied more, I was being persuaded more that "original sin" & "sin nature" is wrong.

You should listen to [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=1973]Paris Reidhead - The Hidden Things Of God Part 1[/url]

Quote:
And also, did you honestly read Spurgeon's message as you were asked?

Yes.
Quote:
Spurgeon said:
The FACT, the great and terrible fact, that EVEN THE RIGHTEOUS HAVE IN THEM EVIL NATURES.

Dualism Good vs. bad

 2009/10/30 17:44Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy