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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Inbred Sin Is Not Removed By Conversion

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murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Inbred Sin Is Not Removed By Conversion

It seems to me that many a christians believe that Inbred sin (the old man) is dealt with at conversation.

At conversion, all the carnal mind, or inbred sin, is not destroyed. A very troublesome residuum still remains, which is the chief cause of backsliding, intensifies the power of the temptations of the devil, is the root of the strife we often see among Christians, and is that which demands satisfaction from the world, leading so many followers of God to go to the world for gratification.

The Scriptures teach that remnants of carnality, or inbred sin Let us turn to the New Testament. Paul says to the church at Corinth 1 Cor 3 "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able." Here he acknowledges that they were "in Christ," and "brethren," but that they were "carnal," "babes in Christ"; that is, the carnal mind still existed in these brethren. And no one could say to the Apostle, we are pure in heart; we became so when we became brethren; for he tells them in the next verse in what form inbred sin exhibited itself. "For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?" This Scripture clearly teaches, then, by the recognition of the Apostle, that we may be "brethren," and yet be "carnal," as evinced in unholy temples. These had not backslidden, for they were "babes in Christ." Neither had inbred sin been destroyed in these "babes in Christ."

The Apostle describes, in the seventh chapter of Romans, the struggle of a man with inbred sin. Some have understood in this chapter that a Christian is referred to; others, that it refers only to the unconverted. While it illustrates, in some degree, the case of every one, both saint and sinner, in whom dwells the carnal mind, it seems to us more especially to illustrate the experience of the Christian who has perceived the exceeding spirituality of God's law. It is only a Christian with an abhorrence for sin divinely implanted, who could utter such a heart-rending cry as: "O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" But the confession of the man is the Scriptural confession of a man in favor with God. Hear him in the twenty-second verse: "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man." Now the man who "delights in the law of God, after the inward" man, is a Christian, - a servant of God, the ungodly are not so.

Yet he may delight in the law of the Lord in the inner man, and yet have the same experience that the Apostle speaks of in the next verse Rom 7:23 "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind." In the epistle to the Galatians, Paul tells us of this same law of inbred sin in the Galatian Christians, who had "begun in the Spirit," and expected to be "made perfect by the flesh." He says: "This, I say then, walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfil the lusts of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary, the one to the other, so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." Here we have a contest in the hear ts of these Galatians between the Spirit and the flesh.

jOHN Wesley says on the passage: "But the Holy Spirit, on his part, opposes your evil nature"; and again, in his sermon on Sin in Believers, he says of the passage: "Nothing can be more express. The Apostle here directly affirms that the flesh, evil nature, opposes the Spirit, even in believers; that even in the regenerate, there are two principles, contrary the one to the other."

Inbred sin had come into this church in the same form as at Corinth. The Bible abounds with the teaching that inbred sin exists, in a degree, in the justified. We find, too, that the Thessalonian Church were "in God the Father, and in the Lord Jesus Christ" 1 Thess 1:1 and yet some things were lacking in their faith 1 Thess 3:10 Inbred sin lurked in a state of imperfect faith in the heart that failed to save them from a certain sin that they were as yet ignorant of as displeasing to God.

Inbred sin never was forgiven, and never can be forgiven, either in this world or the world to come. It is not one of those things that forgiveness could touch. Forgiveness is granted only for those things that we do; not for what we are by nature. Inbred sill is not a deed, but a state.

Before closing this post, stop to notice the objection usually raised at this point. It is often said: "I gave my all to God at conversion, and He did the whole work for me then. When God does a work, He does a perfect work. He does not do any half-way work." This sounds very plausible and very reasonable, but it is an unfair statement. It assumes that other people accuse the Lord of performing only a half-way work, which is not the case. God does perform a perfect work at conversion. But perfect conversion is not perfect cleansing. He must be converted to see the spirituality of God's law. That he cannot see in his sins. For he is "dead in trespasses and sins." He must have new faculties, in order to see the spirituality of God's laws. He is converted in order to put him where he may intelligently see the loathsome corruption of inbred sin.


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Colin Murray

 2009/10/24 20:09Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re: Inbred Sin Is Not Removed By Conversion

Murrcolr,

very good post brother!

The scriptures are clear about if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

 2009/10/24 20:39Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

I agree totally, Murrcolr. Any Christian who looks deeply into the holiness of God as presented in the Word and clarified by the Spirit, cannot help but see how far he falls short of God's holiness. The more you draw near to God, the more you will loathe yourself for the weakness of your flesh and the sins that arise despite your best efforts to please God.

This weakness is our "thorn in the flesh" that keeps us humble and truly dependent upon the Lord Jesus for our sanctification.

 2009/10/24 21:24Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3442
Louisiana

 Re: Inbred Sin Is Not Removed By Conversion

Brothers, There is much confusion concerning sin and the sin nature within a Christian.

At the new birth all of our past sins are cleansed by the blood of Jesus. There is total forgiveness of sin.

The sin nature, that is who we were in Adam before we are born again has been nailed to the cross with Christ. We have been (past tense), not going to be, crucifed with Christ.

The good news of Romans 6 is that our sin nature has been dealt with at the cross.

As a new Christian we are babes in Christ, and until we grow up and learn to walk in the Spirit, then we are indeed carnal. Being carnal is not a state that we are to habitually abide in, because God has called us to put off the deeds of the body, put off the old man, and put on the new. If we walk in the Spirit, then we wont fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

As Christians we must claim all of the finished work of the cross for the putting off of the old man. We must agree with God that our old man is crucifed with Christ. We must reckon (or account} ourselves as being dead to sin but alive unto God.

The babe in Christ must go through a process of sanctification, his mind must be renewed. The soul (mind, will, and emotions) is in the process of being saved.

Our bodies must be submitted to God as living sacrifices which is our reasonable service. (Romans 12:1,2).

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Romans 6:6).

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:11).

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17).

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1,2).


_________________
Mike

 2009/10/24 21:38Profile









 Re:Being Sanctified




Brothers & Sisters, let us reason together.

As a Christian, in this body of flesh and blood, I am in the process of “being” Sanctified. I will not be completely sanctified until the rapture, when I receive my new glorified body like that of Jesus Christ, and shed this corrupt body of flesh and blood, inherited from Adam.

Now, each of us has the Holy Spirit that lives within us and leads us into all truth(he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you)--- But, we we are still not perfected like Jesus Christ during our lifetimes.
(John 16:13-14).

Ephesians 4:30
30. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

We will not be complete until we get rid of this body of flesh and blood and receive a new, glorified body:

(1 Cor 15:50)
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


Today, as we continue to live on this earth throughout our entire life, we are still in the continuous state of repenting and believing & being (not already) sanctified.

(1 Cor 13:12)
12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Cor 1 Cor 15:50-58 describes the rapture, when we finally get rid of our corrupted bodies of flesh and blood (for those that are still living at this time). For others who have previously died, who are in heaven (under the mercy seat) in their spirit bodies, waiting for their new glorified physical bodies. They will receive their glorified bodies first, and we will receive ours immediately after them, and then go up to be with the Lord in heaven for 7 years during the Great Tribulation:

1 Cor 15:50-58
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Only then, at the rapture, will we be totally sanctified. Until then, we are a work in progress, becoming more like Him, and more Holy, but never all the way. The way we can tell? Are any of us like Jesus Christ? How was He? Totally sinless, by thought and deed. He also had the Holy Spirit within Him beyond (without) measure, totally overflowing.
John 3:34-36

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
We, as Christian believers, have the Holy Spirit with measure. 100% of our thoughts and deeds are never pure, like those of Christ. Again, we are a “work in progress” until the rapture, and then “We Will Be Like Him”, and be with Him Forever!!!!

Sincerely,

Walter




 2009/10/24 23:51
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Quote:
We, as Christian believers, have the Holy Spirit with measure. 100% of our thoughts and deeds are never pure, like those of Christ. Again, we are a “work in progress” until the rapture, and then “We Will Be Like Him”, and be with Him Forever!!!!

Sincerely,

Walter


Very well said, Walter. I hope others will see the truth in this.

 2009/10/25 0:42Profile









 Re: Inbred Sin Is Not Removed By Conversion



Not only upon conversion; but many believe in a second, sanctifying grace that propels us into sinless perfection, that may occur along the path at any time.




Bob L. Ross
Ross begins;..I John 3:9 — "Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Notice that phrase, "he cannot sin, because he is born of God." But according to the notion of the "sinless perfection" crowd, a Christian can sin! I heard one say over the radio just a few days ago that "if you sin after you're saved, you're lost again." But this verse says that a saint cannot sin!

But, what will the "sinless perfection" crowd do with that verse? Will they accept it? If so, they will have to come on over and believe in Eternal Security, for if a person cannot sin, then he is secure eternally. But if they teach that one born of God can sin, then they deny God's Word. Now, which horn will Mr. Sinless Perfection take? He is stabbed to death on either one.

Now, what does this verse teach? It is telling us that the man born of God does not and cannot sin, because the seed of God — the new nature begotten by the Spirit — remains in him. Now, the flesh isn't born of God. That which is born of flesh is flesh. But the "new man" — the spiritual man — is born of God. It is this inward man — the new nature — that does not, and cannot sin.

When God saved us, He did not change our old Adamic fleshly nature one particle; He simply gave us a new nature. Now, we have two: one of them wants to sin, the other fights against sin, and causes us to serve the Lord. All sin is of the old fleshly nature, and all good is of the spiritual nature. This new nature (new man) cannot sin and cannot even approve of a sinful thought.

Another verse that teaches us this same truth is I John 5:18 — "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

You see, here we have security again. The new man keeps himself, and the devil cannot touch him. The only nature the devil can touch is the old flesh. The old flesh is nothing but a mass of sin.

We won't have this old body of sin in Heaven, for the Lord will give us a new body. No sinful thing can enter Heaven, so God doesn't take the old sinful body to Heaven! Beloved, the very fact that Christians die, physically, proves that they are not sinless in the body. Do you realize that the only thing that causes either physical or eternal death is sin? Thus, IF we were sinlessly prefect in the flesh, we would never die, for there would be no sin to cause us to die. In view of the fact that we all die, it is quite evident that no one is perfect in the old flesh."....Bob L. Ross.
................................................................................................

I agree with this theology. Can you see where theology is important? I hope so. For, if you err in this one, seemingly minor truth, then you miss the Cross, and the ABILITY to bear it, and thereby the ability to mature! Yes; in the long run, it may even cost you your soul! One can run out of grace, as the 5 virgins of Matthew 25 did.


Jesus said; "If any man come after ME, let him deny himself, pick up his cross daily, and follow me.

If we were ever somehow without sin, WHY would we ever DENY ourselves? Why would we pick up our CROSS?..[ death to ourselves ].


We are sinless when we behold Him as He is, and I assure you, it will not be in this body. Paul said; "I press in to the high call!", and "I have not yet attained!"


We must allow the spirit to "mortify", to destroy, this "body of death" we all dwell in.


Paul cried, as every true believer always has, and always will, "Who will deliver me from this body of Death!" Yes, when we see Jesus, we will be like him. I can't wait, but that is why I am holding on, and trying to bear my cross too.

 2009/10/25 6:23
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1988
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Inbred Sin Is Not Removed By Conversion

Quote:
At conversion, all the carnal mind, or inbred sin, is not destroyed. A very troublesome residuum still remains, which is the chief cause of backsliding, intensifies the power of the temptations of the devil, is the root of the strife we often see among Christians, and is that which demands satisfaction from the world, leading so many followers of God to go to the world for gratification.



I would say this is true only if one believes it is the carnal mind that is the part of man that is born again. Jesus teaches in John 3 that is is the spirit that is born again, not the mind. Paul says the mind must be renewed (Romans 12:2). Regeneration is not a change of memory but a total rebirth of the spirit. Our spirit is perfected forever, recreated in righteousness and true holiness, sealed. The mind will continue to give us problems until we are glorified. Our problem was never with our mind, it was with our spirit. When we, as born again believers, sin it is not because we are somehow struggling with two natures. It is that we are struggling with living out of the spirit or following the ways of the unrenewed mind, the flesh if you will.

Holiness is the fruit that springs from the root of regeneration. A new man, a new nature, will yield the peaceable fruits of righteousness which are actions of holiness.


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Travis

 2009/10/25 9:43Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Inbred Sin Is Not Removed By Conversion

It is evidentl that you are confusing the flesh to be something as "inbred sin". This is wrong because you making sin something which it is not

Sin is either a verb or attitude of the heart which we, by our own personal choice are guilty of.

Sin is alway to be guilty of & always able to be repented of.
[b]IF[/b] sin is "inbred", then it can not be a fault which anyone is guilty of, nor can it be repented of.
This means the the so called "inbred sin" is not realy sin but a flaw of creation; we are victims of "inbred sin" and not really criminals.

We must understand about the flesh that it is still "good" as God called it in the beginning; which means "useful or serving its purpose, good for which it is created to do."

The flesh will give pleasure because of the senses. The flesh is amoral, it takes pleasure in what ever & however, good or bad, morally or immorally for it has no mind to discern. This is unchangeable, it will remain the same even after we are saved; the flesh needs to be done away with. That will happen in the resurrection.

Quote:
Now the man who "delights in the law of God, after the inward" man, is a Christian, - a servant of God, the ungodly are not so...
...Inbred still is not a deed, but a state.

The ungodly may be so, Paul was a pharisee before he was saved, therefore he elighted in the law of God even when he was unsaved.

Furthermore, the term "inbred" means to have by birth, however, sin can not be inherited. It is not anything in the blood or genetic like a disease & even hair or eye colored which is passed down from birth. Sin is not anything to be born with.

Quote:
The Bible abounds with the teaching that inbred sin exists

You can only see it "abounding" in the Bible if one has an alien definition of sin which is not Biblical.

Quote:
Yet he may delight in the law of the Lord in the inner man, and yet have the same experience that the Apostle speaks of in the next verse Rom 7:23 "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind."

The ''law of sin'' in Rom 7:23 is the demands of one's own fleshly desires & effections against known law that bring him in opposition to God which separates him from God. The ''law of sin'' includes the inability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in Christ.

This concludes that which is in our ''members'' (in our flesh, veres :23) are the unlawful effections &/or desires of the flesh which brings about spiritual death.

 2009/10/25 10:55Profile









 Re: The Down Payment, The Earnest






[b]Let us continue to reason together. Since none of us read and study from the same Bible anymore, much confusion has arisen within the body of Christ about the "down payment", the "earnest" that we receive when we are saved, and the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us.[/b]


All of us are either “in” Adam, or “in” Christ. Before we were saved, and born again, we were all “in” Adam. We have inherited his sin nature. It is our nature to sin, by thought and deed.

Sin is described in the Bible as transgression of the law of God (1 John 3:4) and rebellion against God (Deuteronomy 9:7; Joshua 1:18). Genesis 3 describes Adam and Eve’s rebellion against God and His command. Because of Adam and Eve’s disobedience, sin has been an “inheritance” for all of their descendants. Romans 5:12 tells us that, through Adam, sin entered the world and so death was passed on to all men because all have sinned. This passed-on sin is known as inherited sin. Just as we inherit physical characteristics from our parents, we inherit our sinful nature from Adam.

Adam and Eve were made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:6). However, we are also in the image and likeness of Adam (Genesis 5:3).

When Adam fell into sin, the result was every one of his descendants also being “infected” with sin. David lamented this fact in one of his Psalms: “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5). This does not mean that his mother bore him illegitimately; rather, his mother had inherited a sin nature from her parents, and they from their parents, and so on. David inherited sin from his parents, just as we all do. Even if we live the best life possible, we are still sinners as a result of inherited sin.

Being born sinners results in the fact that we all sin. Notice the progression in Romans 5:12: sin entered the world through Adam, death follows sin, death comes to all people, all people sin because they inherit sin from Adam. Because “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), we need a perfect, sinless sacrifice to wash away our sin, something we are powerless to do on our own. Thankfully, Jesus Christ is the Savior from sin! Our sin has been crucified on the cross of Jesus, and now “in Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Ephesians 1:7). God, in His infinite wisdom, has provided the remedy for the sin we inherit, and that remedy is available to everyone:[b] “Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you” [/b](Acts 13:38).

[b]However, once we come to belief in Jesus Christ, the Messiah, we only have the down payment (the “earnest”, the “guarantee”, the “pledge”) when the Holy Spirit comes to live within our hearts. We are still not perfect like Christ. Of course, if we sin (and we will) we are to repent of our sin (sinful deeds or sinful thoughts have the same weight) and turn back to Christ. We will not get the final payment (perfection, when we are honestly like Christ) until the rapture—see my previous post on this thread[/b]

[color=990000][b]WE HAVE THE SPIRIT AS AN EARNEST...
1. The Spirit is given as an[u] "earnest" (KJV) of our inheritance-[/u] (Ephesians 1:13-14);
(2Co 1:21-22)
a. Translated [u]"guarantee" (NKJV)[/u]
b. Translated[u] "pledge" (NASB, NRSV)[/u]
2. The word "earnest" (Gr. arrabon) - "first installment, deposit, down payment, pledge, that pays a part of the purchase price in advance, and so secures a legal claim to the article in question, or makes a contract valid...in any case,[arrabon]is a payment which obligates the contracting party to make further payments." - Arndt & Gingrich (Greek Lexicon & Word Study, page 109)
3. Vine points out that the word is closely connected to the modern Greek word for engagement ring - Expository Dictionary of
New Testament Words, Vol. II, p.11
4. "The Holy Spirit is God's earnest (down payment) to the Christian as assurance of the complete promised inheritance."
a. "There is no comfort here for the advocate of the impossibility of apostasy."
b. "The Christian can 'grieve' the Spirit (Ep 4:30)."
c. "We can forfeit the down payment and not receive the inheritance."
-- Ferrell Jenkins, The Finger of God, p.19
-- Receiving the Spirit is an indication that we are the children of God, and joint-heirs with Christ of the inheritance of which the Spirit is an "earnest" - Ro 8:14-17[/color][/b]

WE ARE STRENGTHENED BY THE SPIRIT...
1. God strengthens us by His Spirit in the inner man - Ep 3:16
2. It is by the Spirit we are able to put to death the deeds of the body - Ro 8:13
3. The Spirit helps in our weaknesses - Ro 8:26
-- The Spirit serves as God's instrumental agent by which He imparts strength and support to the Christian

WE ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT...
1.[b] Necessary if we are to be the sons of God[/b] - Ro 8:14
2. Necessary if we are [b]not to fulfill the lust of the flesh[/b] - Ga 5:16
3. Necessary if we are [b]not to fall under condemnation of the law[/b]
- Ga 5:18

WE BEAR THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT...
1. The fruit of a person led by the Spirit includes love, joy,
peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
gentleness, self-control - cf. Ga 5:22-23
2. We can be filled with peace and all joy in believing, and
abound in hope by the power of the Spirit - Ro 15:13
-- Producing such fruit is contingent on setting our minds on the
things of the Spirit - Ro 8:5-9

CONCLUSION

1. Exactly how the Spirit indwells the Christian may remain a mystery...
a. Many understand the indwelling as literal, with the Spirit
personally abiding in the Christian
b. Others view it as figurative, the Spirit dwelling through the Word
only
-- I used to hold the latter view; I now lean strongly toward the
former

2. Whatever the exact nature of the Spirit's indwelling, we must be
careful to not...
a. Grieve the Spirit, by whom we sealed for the day of redemption
b. Anger the Father, who has given us His Spirit as a pledge of our
inheritance
-- Which we can do by continuing in willful sin - Hebrews 10:26-31

3. Whatever the exact nature of the Spirit's indwelling, we must be
careful to...
a. Bring glory to God, by producing the fruit of the Spirit
b. Walk after the Spirit, being strengthened by the Spirit
-- Which we can do by being led by the Spirit, as we set our minds on the things of the Spirit - Romans 8:5-14


Sincerely,

Walter

 2009/10/25 11:30





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