SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Praying to the saints (the catholic way)

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( 1 | 2 Next Page )
PosterThread
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Praying to the saints (the catholic way)

A buddy of mine wrote this quote down online:

Quote:

"When praying to the Lord, to the Mother of God, or to the saints, always remember that the Lord will give you according to your heart. He will 'grant thee according to thine own heart' (Psalm 20:4)." -- St. John of Kronstadt



To that I explained to him that I don't think I want anyone praying TO me and I also said this:"I'm a saint just as is every other person that has accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Plus, I don't think anyone should defy John 14:6. No one can get to God accept through Jesus, so why would anyone pray to a dead woman or to me, a saint?"

Anyways, a priest chimed in and said:

Quote:

"Thankfully there is no such thing as a "dead saint" (an oxymoron) for God is the God of the Living, and all who are alive in Christ share a living communion with Him and with all others in Him, whether in this world or the next. Also, have you ever had a friend ask you to pray for them? Did you refuse, based on John 14:6? Asking the saints to pray for us does not mean they take the place of Christ, merely that they stand beside Christ and share His love and concern for those of us still struggling on earth. We have a heavenly family. Something to think about...

there is no verse of scripture telling us to pray only to Christ. The word "pray" means to request. We can request God to act for us, or we can ask a brother or sister to request God to act for us. ("Two or more" in agreement) This does not mean that I think my brother or sister to be equal to God or my mediator in place of Christ. It only means that I ask them to pray to God for me. Is this not biblical?

We do not pray TO saints in the same way as we pray to God. We only ask the saints to pray for us, on our behalf. This is exactly what you and I do when we ask each other to pray. There is no difference, and asking others to pray for us is totally biblical.



I know that this isn't a matter of salvation and not quite a strong matter to debate over, but can anyone offer any good advice or Scripture? Anything I can present to him?

In Christ,
Ben

 2009/10/23 12:41Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re: Praying to the saints (the catholic way)

Don't write all at once, now!

 2009/10/23 13:55Profile
hearthetruth
Member



Joined: 2009/10/23
Posts: 7


 Re: Praying to the saints (the catholic way)

Have you thought about the proposition that he just might be right?

Anyway, I was hoping to be able to say goodbye on the other thread. But since the moderator closed it down because of another show of blatant cowardace and inability to hear the truth...I'll say adieu here.

May God lead you ALL to everlasting life. May He grant you the peace that I have found. May the winds of erroneous doctrines cease in your lives as in mine and may you share in the peace I have found in the most Holy and Glorious Trinity.

Amen.

 2009/10/23 14:07Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Greetings Ben

You are correct in saying that your friend is wrong for praying to dead saints and to mary. No where in the Bible are we ever instructed to do so. And no there is a clear difference in my asking you to say a prayer for me directly to the Lord and asking someone who is no longer living to pray for you. I am including here a prayer from the Catholics themselves said by Catholics to mary as an example for you, you judge if this the same as you asking your brother/sister in Christ to seek God on your behalf? Praying to mary as most Roman Catholics do(my mom included) is really nothing less then idol worship they lift her up to the same position as they do Jesus, the RCC even teaches that Mary through her motherly suffering is co-redeemer in the work of the cross. I will disagree with you on one point however for those who are lost in the Catholic Church and who hold to its teaching, on mary, the pope, and a number of other issues it is clearly a matter of salvation for them.Jesus alone is the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus. And Jesus alone is our Savior. Even mary needed Jesus blood cover in order to be forgiven her sins and go to heaven.


My only advice is to pray for your friend and share with him with a loving Christ like heart as the Lord gives leading to you to do so. I think getting caught up in debates is pointless and sadly there may come to a point with your friend where you have to turn him over to the Lord and leave him in His hands. I will pray for your friend to see His need for Jesus and I will pray for the Lord to strengthen and guide you as you seek to share truth with him.

God Bless
maryjane


The Memorare

Remember, O most loving Virgin Mary,
that never was it known that anyone
who fled to your protection,
implored your help,
or sought your intercession was left unaided.
Inspired with this confidence, we turn to you,
O Virgin of virgins, our Mother.
To you we come, before you we stand,
sinful and sorrowful.
O Mother of the Word Incarnate,
do not despise our petitions,
but in your mercy hear us and answer us.
Amen.

(I only post the above mentioned prayer to show as an example how very deceived those lost in the RCC church are. I pray for them to see Jesus and be saved. I would never pray in such a manner nor would I seek the guidance of someone who is dead. My prayer are directed to Jesus because He alone can save us.)

 2009/10/23 14:43Profile
IWantAnguish
Member



Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343
VCU @ Richmond, VA

 Re:

How disgusting.

Quote:
Remember, O most loving Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help, or sought your intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, we turn to you, O Virgin of virgins, our Mother. To you we come, before you we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, do not despise our petitions, but in your mercy hear us and answer us. Amen.



The road paved to hell is paved with good intentions.

How awful will be that day when we stand before Him; and all these false religions burn into ash.


_________________
Sam Yoon

 2009/10/23 15:14Profile









 Re: Praying to the saints (the catholic way)



How do we respond to Catholics, or anyone for that matter, that asks us why we pray the way that we do?

The answer is found in the Bible, God's Word:

The Model Christian Prayer is found in Matthew:

“After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen"
(Matthew 6:9-13)

Other verses in the New Testament & the Old Testament give us further understanding:

John 14:13-14

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Asking is connected with fruit bearing and doing greater works for God. When a believer abides in Christ and Christ’s words abide in him, that person’s prayers will be answered. This does not mean that all requests are answered, for the context suggests that the prayers pertain to fruit bearing and glorifying God. When we abide in Him, our thoughts and desires conform to His, and we can pray "in His name", knowing that our requests please God.

(John 15:7-11)

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

Some have the idea that we are able to control circumstances through prayer. They believe that if we just pray the Scriptures that fall in line with the desire that we would like to see happen, because God’s Word said that His words will not return to Him void, we will have what we desired of Him.

(Luke 11:5-13)

5 And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves;

6 For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him?

7 And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.

8 I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.

9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

11. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12. Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13. If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Here it looks like we can change circumstances, but looks can be deceiving. Jesus was teaching us about persistence. Persistence changes the hearts and minds of those praying, and helps them understand and express the intensity of their need. Persistence in prayer helps recognize God’s works. By praying persistently, believers are not trying to get a reluctant God to answer their prayers, instead, they are showing that they are very serious about their request. We can see this also with Abraham (Gen 18), and Hezekiah (Is 38), and even David (1 Samuel 30).

Believers must not take Jesus’ words as a blank check, however; prayer in Jesus’ name is not to be a magical formula for us to obtain whatever we want. Requests must be in harmony with God’s will, accepting His will above our desires.

God’s best for us may be sickness and privation, instead of health and wealth, but it is designed to bring us into a closer walk with Him and to accomplish His purpose. Look at Jesus (John 17), and Paul (2 Cor 12-10), and others (Heb 11:30-38), for examples. Sometimes what is best is suffering and death. Jesus even suffered. Go back through the gospels and count them. Look at Paul as well.

2 Cor 11:24-28

24. Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

26. In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

27. In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

28. Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

[b]What did Paul have to say about all this? Was Paul really content if things weren’t going well?[/b]

Php 4:11-12

11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

Here is another very important principle to consider, no matter what the situation.

Rom 8:28

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (KJV)

Often in Scripture "name" signifies the presence of the person in the character revealed
(1 Kings 18:24). To be sent or to speak in someone’s "name" signifies to carry his authority (Jer 11:21; 2 Cor 5:20). To be baptized into someone’s "name" means to pass into new ownership (Mt 28:19);(Acts 8:16); (1 Cor 1:13,15). To forget God’s "name" is to depart from Him (Jeremiah 23:27)

The next time that each of us pray, we should remember these things. The next time you meet with the Priest you menitioned, share what Jesus Christ has taught us through His Bible, His Word, the Old and the New Testament.

God has magnified His Word above his Name:
2. I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: [color=990000][b]for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name[/color][/b]

Sincererly,

Walter

Quote:

BenBrockway wrote:
A buddy of mine wrote this quote down online:

Quote:

"When praying to the Lord, to the Mother of God, or to the saints, always remember that the Lord will give you according to your heart. He will 'grant thee according to thine own heart' (Psalm 20:4)." -- St. John of Kronstadt



To that I explained to him that I don't think I want anyone praying TO me and I also said this:"I'm a saint just as is every other person that has accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Plus, I don't think anyone should defy John 14:6. No one can get to God accept through Jesus, so why would anyone pray to a dead woman or to me, a saint?"

Anyways, a priest chimed in and said:

Quote:

"Thankfully there is no such thing as a "dead saint" (an oxymoron) for God is the God of the Living, and all who are alive in Christ share a living communion with Him and with all others in Him, whether in this world or the next. Also, have you ever had a friend ask you to pray for them? Did you refuse, based on John 14:6? Asking the saints to pray for us does not mean they take the place of Christ, merely that they stand beside Christ and share His love and concern for those of us still struggling on earth. We have a heavenly family. Something to think about...

there is no verse of scripture telling us to pray only to Christ. The word "pray" means to request. We can request God to act for us, or we can ask a brother or sister to request God to act for us. ("Two or more" in agreement) This does not mean that I think my brother or sister to be equal to God or my mediator in place of Christ. It only means that I ask them to pray to God for me. Is this not biblical?

We do not pray TO saints in the same way as we pray to God. We only ask the saints to pray for us, on our behalf. This is exactly what you and I do when we ask each other to pray. There is no difference, and asking others to pray for us is totally biblical.



I know that this isn't a matter of salvation and not quite a strong matter to debate over, but can anyone offer any good advice or Scripture? Anything I can present to him?

In Christ,
Ben

 2009/10/23 18:15
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7469
Mississippi

 Re: Praying to the saints (the catholic way)

Quote:
"When praying to the Lord, to the Mother of God, or to the saints, always remember that the Lord will give you according to your heart



I have one question about this theory...perhaps a former Catholic can answer it?

So, Catholics suggest you can pray to Mary or any of the other saints, make requests from them much as you would ask another human to pray for you. Now you pray to this saint and if they are dead, six feet under, how do they hear your request? How do they know when you are talking to them?

To me the answer is so obvious that it is a no brainer...but how do Catholics understand this?

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2009/10/23 20:28Profile









 Re:

Hi ginnyrose.. The 'saints' according to the catholic church can have 'communion' with eachother living or dead. Orthodox says that the 'communion of saints' is a biblical principle that pertains to this. This is my understanding as a former catholic... I won't say anymore than this...

 2009/10/23 20:58
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7469
Mississippi

 Re:

OK, so the saints 'can have communion' with each other. But how is this done? Who or what carries this communication from one to the other?

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2009/10/23 21:19Profile









 Re:

By prayer. You commune with the dead saint through prayer... but they have to be 'Cannonized' to be an advocate to Christ in my limited knowledge of this. The saints are mediators to Christ, you can ask them to advocate for you to Our Savior. Many say that 'it's like asking any friend to pray for you, only they are on the other side to advocate'. Notice though that it's subjective to the church... my catholic Grandmother died when I was thirteen.. I can't 'commune' with her as far as I know because she's not a Cannonized patron of the church. This is a process of 'miracles' and supernatural activity that produces an answer to prayer. It's based on testimon of church members and investigated by the catholic 'investigators' to determine if the miracles are authentic. If so the saint goes through a church process of Cannonization and once cannonized, we can pray to them as an advocate to Christ.

 2009/10/23 21:34





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy