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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : The Misunderstood Cross - Paul Washer

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IWantAnguish
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Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343


 Re:

I would reckon that what Christ suffered on that cross was worse than hell could ever be.

How so?

David says if I ascend to heaven, you are there, if I make my bed in hell, behold, you are there.

While Jesus says, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Has anyone, or will anyone be completely forsaken by God?

Only the Son of Man.

May God be glorified in all things.


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Sba

 2009/10/20 13:27Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re: The Misunderstood Cross - Paul Washer

I think H.Bonar says some wonderful things on the subject of the cross in this excerpt:

“The completeness of the sacrificial work on Calvary will be matter for eternal contemplation and rejoicing, long after every sin has been, by its cleansing efficacy, washed out of our being for ever. Shall we ever exhaust the fullness of the cross? Is it a mere stepping-stone to something beyond itself ? Shall we ever cease to glory in it (as the apostle gloried), not only because of past, but because of present and eternal blessing? The forgiveness of sin is one thing; but is that all?

The crucifixion of the world is another; but is that all? Is the cross to be a relic, useless though venerable, like the serpent of brass laid up in the tabernacle; to be destroyed perhaps at some future time, and called Nehushtan? Or is it not rather like the tree of life, which bears twelve manner of fruits, and yields its fruit every month, by the banks of the celestial river?

Its influence here on earth is transforming; but even after the transformation has been completed, and the whole church perfected, shall there not be a rising higher and higher, a taking on of greater and yet greater comeliness, a passing from glory to glory; and all in connection with the cross, and through the never-ending vision of its wonders?

Of the new Jerusalem it is said, ‘The Lamb is the light (or lamp) thereof.’ The Lamb is only another name for Christ crucified: so that thus it is the cross that is the lamp of the holy city ; and with its light, the gates of pearl, the jasper wall, the golden streets, the brilliant foundations, and the crystal river, are all lighted up. The glow of the cross is everywhere, penetrating every part, and reflected from every gem; and by its peculiar radiance transporting the dwellers of the city back to Golgotha, as the fountainhead of all this splendour.

It is light from Calvary that fills the heaven of heavens. Yet it is no dim religious light: for the glory of God is to lighten it; and its light is like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper-stone, clear as crystal; and there is no night there, and they need no candle, neither light of the sun, for the Lord God giveth them light. Yes, we shall never be done with the cross and the blood.”

–Horatius Bonar, The Everlasting Righteousnes


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/10/20 13:47Profile
bdcutler
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Joined: 2009/9/15
Posts: 22
Mitchell SD

 Re:

Leo_Grace wrote:

Quote:
What is important is that God did it, and it works - that's all we need to know. The hows and whys are all conjecture that cannot be truly pinned down by any man.



Amen. I understand why some people feel like they need to address perceived errors, however, if we try to "figure out" the cross we miss some very important points. This is because it is man's tendency to make things smaller than they are so we can understand them.

For example, in Brother Washers message (which overall was good and had many insightful points) he stated the following:

Quote:
"I've been saved, " and I go "From what? From what have you been saved?" People usually say "Sin!" " Nope! ... Nope!"

They say: "What do you mean 'Nope"?'" Sin wasn't after you. Sin wasn't going to throw you in Hell. You have sinned, but the sin caused something else. Sin isn't going to throw you in Hell! Sin is not even a person!



If the cross was just about saving men from God's wrath, then do we do with scriptures like Matthew 1:21? Or what about Romans 6? Indeed, the Greek word for save (σῴζω: sōzō) implies a lot more than just saving from danger and destruction, but also of healing and restoring to good health.

Now, I don't know about "theories of atonement," but I do know that He died for my sins and I've been saved from sin, death, and God's wrath. I know that as many as have been baptized into Christ have been baptized into his death, my old man crucified with him that the body of sin might be destroyed. I am a new creature in Him. I know whom I have believed in, and He is able.


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Benjamin Cutler

 2009/10/20 14:45Profile
tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
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 Re:

Quote:
If the cross was just about saving men from God's wrath, then do we do with scriptures like Matthew 1:21?

Being saved from sin is being saved from the wrath of God. Paul Washer is simply attempting to get people to see the bigger picture.


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TJ

 2009/10/20 14:53Profile
Leo_Grace
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Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Quote:

tjservant wrote:
Quote:
If the cross was just about saving men from God's wrath, then do we do with scriptures like Matthew 1:21?

Being saved from sin is being saved from the wrath of God. Paul Washer is simply attempting to get people to see the bigger picture.


I agree totally. Because of God's holiness, sin is inextricably linked with God's wrath and spiritual death. Washer was simply stating the obvious - that the power to throw man into hell emanates from God and His wrath. This is what we must be saved from - God's wrath. Without a holy God in the picture, sin holds no terror for anyone.

Sin, spiritual death, and God's wrath are all bundled up together and in one supreme act of love, Jesus Christ redeemed us from all these through his death on the cross. This is the simple truth that we all need to understand - not the illusory philosophies of mere men who would presume upon themselves some expertise that goes beyond this simple truth.

 2009/10/20 15:13Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
Because of God's holiness, sin is inextricably linked with God's wrath and spiritual death. Washer was simply stating the obvious - that the power to throw man into hell emanates from God and His wrath. This is what we must be saved from - God's wrath. Without a holy God in the picture, sin holds no terror for anyone.

Sin, spiritual death, and God's wrath are all bundled up together and in one supreme act of love, Jesus Christ redeemed us from all these through his death on the cross. This is the simple truth that we all need to understand - not the illusory philosophies of mere men who would presume upon themselves some expertise that goes beyond this simple truth.



Amen.

This is a perfect example of why I so often use the words of others. Well said. :-)


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TJ

 2009/10/20 16:00Profile









 Re:

It is enough to know in simplicity that, because of the atonement of Christ, when we turn from our sins and turn to Christ, God turns from His wrath. But if we do not turn from our sins to Christ, we abide under God's wrath, even though Jesus Christ has died for us. As a new convert, before I heard the different views, this was all I knew.

If we need to be more specific than that, we can say that the penalty of eternal hell can be remitted by God's grace and mercy, when we are converted to Christ, because the atonement of Jesus Christ has substituted or taken the place of our punishment.

 2009/10/20 20:49









 Re:

I have a question for truefaithsav.

Are you just doing a "cut and paste" of Jesse Morrell's teachings? It seems identical.

 2009/10/20 21:01









 Re:

Hi sscott... That is a very good question considering the fact that Logic has quoted Jesse Morell in the past on this forum and he and truefaithsav have a 'like-minded-ness' like no other I've ever seen here. From what I remember Josef Urban asked Logic about Morell and his theologies.... and either I missed him somewhere on the thread or logic never responded.

 2009/10/20 21:20
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

truefaithsav is probably Jessee Morell. No doubt, he's using his materials. Which is why you only see truefaithsav talk about issues that pretty much center around issues of atonement, and nothing else, because frankly, Jessee is ignorant of Christian doctrine, and theology in general. Which is why he'll seldom talk about anything else. His style of debate is pretty much the same too (and he uses it shamefully in open-air preaching): ignore most everything your opponent says, don't engage in real dialog, and pretty much just flood you with and endless series of quotes and essays, making it impossible for you to ever reply to anything he says, because every objection you raise will be answered with another tsunami of essays. He attempts to "win" arguments by silencing you through intimidation and brute force. But I'm not so convinced he's really interested in winning anybody to anything so much as to rejoice over hearing his own voice. So, early on he might reply with actual dialog, but after that, he just enters into what I call "spam."

I'm not intending to sound crude, and I don't know for sure that either Logic or truefaithsav is in fact Jessee. I'm just sharing my personal subjective observations. Personally speaking, I wish Sermon Index included a "block" button on the forums. I'd rather not see anything truefaithsav ever posts, because there is nothing of edifying value in it.

As it is, I generally believe those who hold to and preach a moral government theology are not saved. If what Paul Washer preached at the start of this thread is true, then I cannot see how we are in anyway talking about the same faith, as the meaning of the cross as preached in moral government theology is radically different from those who hold to a penal substitutionary atonement. This is not like the minor differences that exist between Reformed and Arminian theology.

There might be some exceptions to this general rule of thumb. But in my opinion, they are fundamentally no different than the individuals who corrupted the churches of Galatia, to which Paul said those who are trusting in their ability to keep the law for salvation, instead of trusting in the Lord, should just go ahead and cut the entirety of their male organ off instead of limiting themselves to mere circumcision. Such people, Paul said, have fallen from grace, and have severed themselves from Christ.

So that nobody here thinks I'm speaking rash, I don't make such statements lightly.


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Jimmy H

 2009/10/20 21:40Profile





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