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Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Quote:

whyme wrote:
Perhaps we still have two natures in us after conversion. The Spirit and my spirit war with my sinful flesh. It is still all me but two different parts of me. I'm sure that some of you will find this in error or part of some prior heresy but the Scriptures seem to support the notion. My spirit cannot sin ( the divine nature born by the Spirit within me ) whereas my flesh ( the sinful nature ) which has not been yet fully defeated ( ie., the presence of sin) can and in fact does. I know this sounds psyhzofrenic.



Exactly. This was the dilemma of the Apostle Paul, and the dilemma of all true believers. We have within us the Spirit of God, but because we still live in the flesh, we have also within us the spirit of self. These two war within us, but as long as we obey the command to take up our crosses daily (die to self), and as long as we truly love God above all else (including self), we will be fine - maybe an occasional stumble, but the Lord Jesus is faithful and will keep us from falling.

 2009/10/23 13:04Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

ccrider wrote:
"The thing is, you can't even repent of it if you can't stop it." logic

Okay... have you stopped it??? Yes or no.

Yes.

Quote:
"The fact that I sin maybe "once a month, a year, or a decade" just proves that I chose to sin, but then I repent and stop it again." logic

Stop it AGAIN. And again. And again. And again.

yes.

Quote:
Okay you said above that "The thing is, you can't even repent of it if you can't stop it." but interestingly use the words repent and stop it AGAIN. I see the words STOP and AGAIN as contradictory as your theology.

No, they are not contradictory .

I am in control when ever I sin. I don't have to sin when I do, but I always sin by choice.
I don't blame it on my nature, I blame my self.

It sounds as though you can't stop sinning because you have no control of it; you don’t choose to sin, but that you just do it with out knowledge.
You have no choice not to sin.
That is how I read when I hear all you come against this.

Quote:
You seem to think that righteousness is repenting as many times as needed and after each time you have the ability to live sinlessly thereafter.

Yes!!!
Amen!!!

Quote:
That is until you sin again and repent again and NOW you are sin free and able not to choose it and don't believe that you will sin in the future... until it happens again then you repent and are now sin free and are able to live sinlessly thereafter until you sin again and then you are now free again and able to choose not to sin at all in the future... that is until you sin again and once again you repent and now you are free of that sin and know that you can surely stop it for good until you sin again then repent of that sin and are now free to move forward completely able to not sin until again you sin then repent and know that you are forgiven and clean and can now live righteously as you are still capable of not sinning until you sin again then repent because you don't love sin which is why you repent and are now given a clean slate until you sin again and then repent because you hate sin (as every born again Christian should) and now can stop sinning from this point on until you sin again and I think you get the point.

Yes, good explanation.; except that we are always free from sin.
"Sin free" & "Free from sin" are two(2) different things

"Sin free" means that you are not in any sin, you are not sinning.

"Free from sin" means that sin has not dominion over you. You are not bound to sin.

I am not "sin free" when I am sinning, but I am not bound to it, I am free from it.

However, I may become bound to it if I come in to the habit of that sin, loving it; it will have dominion over me.

Quote:
So where's the end of it logic?

The resurrection of the saints, when we do not have this flesh to make temptation so appealing.

Quote:
Is this your definition of 'to stop sinning'?

Pretty much.

I am glad you are seeing what I am saying, I think we are getting some where.
But I see you still need more understanding of what I mean.

Quote:
Do you think that if you were struck by lightning in the middle of the 'again' and have passed on before a chance to repent, that you will be going to hell??

This is where I differ from truefaithsav.

I don't believe that when I sin, I am hell bound.
That is Arminianism, which I am no of.
It is where I and truefaithsav & Finney are different.

Since I have a relationship with God through Jesus (John 17:3), I am covered by His blood for the sin which I die in to late for repentance.

Do I divorce my wife just because she sinned against me?
No.
God does not disown me just because I sinned against Him.
He knows that I will come to my senses to repent after I sin, knowing that I will have hated sinning, being deceived by the enemy to think I would enjoy it.

Thanx for this post.

 2009/10/23 13:05Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

whyme wrote:
Perhaps we still have two natures in us after conversion. The Spirit and my spirit war with my sinful flesh. It is still all me but two different parts of me. I'm sure that some of you will find this in error or part of some prior heresy but the Scriptures seem to support the notion. My spirit cannot sin ( the divine nature born by the Spirit within me ) whereas my flesh ( the sinful nature ) which has not been yet fully defeated ( ie., the presence of sin) can and in fact does. I know this sounds psyhzofrenic.

This is from Augustine's Gnostisism and Manichaeism.

The Christianized Manichaeism Theology teaches that mankind is a "battleground" for good & evil: the good part is the soul, and the bad part is the body (flesh) which is composed of Earth (the Earth part is true). The soul defines the person and is incorruptible, but it is under the domination of a foreign power (of the body/flesh)

 2009/10/23 13:13Profile









 Re:

Yes, good explanation.; except that we are always free from sin.
"Sin free" & "Free from sin" are two(2) different things

"Sin free" means that you are not in any sin, you are not sinning.

"Free from sin" means that sin has not dominion over you. You are not bound to sin.

I am not "sin free" when I am sinning, but I am not bound to it, I am free from it.

However, I may become bound to it if I come in to the habit of that sin, loving it; it will have dominion over me." logic

I understand what you say here. I have to agree with this in general.


"This is where I differ from truefaithsav.

I don't believe that when I sin, I am hell bound.
That is Arminianism, which I am no of.
It is where I and truefaithsav & Finney are different." logic

Okay... I see.

"Since I have a relationship with God through Jesus (John 17:3), I am covered by His blood for the sin which I die in to late for repentance."logic

A thousand amens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Do I divorce my wife just because she sinned against me?
No.
God does not disown me just because I sinned against Him." logic

Amen.

He knows that I will come to my senses to repent after I sin, knowing that I will have hated sinning." logic

Amen

Thank you for acknowledging the differences between Finney/Armeniansim. In different ways I think we are saying the same thing about our eternal salvation, the divorce analogy is appropriate here.

"Thanx for this post" logic

Thank you too logic. That was edifying.




 2009/10/23 13:30
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
rbanks wrote:

...then sinning every once in a while, he is saying that he is not born of God.

Wrong!!!

[b]1John 5:18[/b] [color=990000]We know that whosoever is born of God [b]sins[/b] not[/color]

The word "sins" is present active.
Sinning every once in a while is not a present active sin.

If you can't stop sinning, even daily in though or deed, is present active sin.

To say that you can't stop sinning (which all of you are saying) is proving that you are not born of God.

Quote:
The scripture says that the born of God do not commit sin and Logic says that he does commit sin every once in a while.

Aren't every one else saying that they still sin even daily in thought or deed, and can't help it?

All I'm saying is that I do choose to sin in contrast with there necessity to tin.

Quote:
A man like Logic who claims that he has the power not to sin, because he doesn’t have, neither was born with a sin nature, but then decides he will sin once a month makes me wonder why he would want to sin at all.

Because I may still be deceived to think that I would enjoy it.
To think that one can't be deceived is already deceived.

I also have my times of weakness, were I haven't been close enough to Jesus (by my own willful laziness).

Quote:
Myself I know I inherited a sin nature from Adam but thank God for the new nature I received from Christ

Sure, blame your past sin on your nature.
Don't take responsibility for your past sin.

Furthermore, I've heard that even after one is saved, they still have the "sin nature".

Which is it?
do you loose it or keep it?

Quote:
and I don’t want to commit a sin ever, not once a month, neither one time in all of eternity.

So, every time you sin now, you didn't want to?
Then why did you sin?
Why do you sin if you don't want to?

Quote:
Since I have been born of God I have received a nature that does not commit sin.

How is it that you still sin?

Quote:
As long as I abide in Christ I will never desire to commit sin but if I fail to abide continually in Christ and allow that other nature to rise up instead of remaining crucified I could easily sin and will need to confess to God for cleansing through the blood of Christ and thank God for his mercy.

This is where we totally agree!!!
Amen!!!
No one can sin as they walk after the spirit.

Quote:
Our focus should not be on self but Christ. We should not be thinking after the flesh but the after the Spirit where there is life and peace, then the Holy Spirit will convict us of any sin to confess and be cleansed from. We are to be dead to sin and self but alive to God. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from our sins but the cross crucifies our sinful nature. We must believe that we were crucified with Christ in order for the old man (our sinful nature) and his deeds to be destroyed.

Yep, Amen, brother, preach it.

Just please understand me?

 2009/10/23 13:38Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote:
whyme wrote:
Perhaps we still have two natures in us after conversion. The Spirit and my spirit war with my sinful flesh. It is still all me but two different parts of me. I'm sure that some of you will find this in error or part of some prior heresy but the Scriptures seem to support the notion. My spirit cannot sin ( the divine nature born by the Spirit within me ) whereas my flesh ( the sinful nature ) which has not been yet fully defeated ( ie., the presence of sin) can and in fact does. I know this sounds psyhzofrenic.



Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

So here we see Paul saying that in his inner man he delights in the law of God. This what God told us about through the Prophet Ezekiel Ezk 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. but that is only one part of the promise he made.

Ezk 36:23 God tells us "I shall be [b]sanctified in you[/b] before their eyes" why so the "heathen shall know that I am the LORD"

This promise is spelled out by God as a work of sanctification in us so God can be glorified in us and it is a two part like I posted earlier Spirit and Heart.

Ezk 36:26 A [b]new heart[/b] also will I give you, and a [b]new spirit[/b] will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Back to Paul when we read in Roms 7:23 Paul declares that the law of sin which is in my members.

So Paul is telling us that there are two natures at war. One is the Spirit and the other is the old man that still lives in your mind, will and emotions (your heart) if you have not been sanctified.

To me Paul in Romans 7 is decribing a stage in his life where his spirit is born again but his heart in not yet purified. He goes on to say that in this condition that he is a wrecthed man because that unpurified heart brings him into captivity to the law of sin. Rom 7:23-24

This nature we are told by Paul to [b]put off[/b] all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy Col 3:8. Does the bible tell us where these issues stem from.

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man Matt 15:19-20

So we have to put off something from the heart.

Then in Col 3:12 Paul tells us to [b]put on[/b] bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering but these must flow from a pure heart a new heart Ezk 36:26

Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is [b]the bond of perfectness[/b]

What is the bond of perfectness charity(Love) and it comes from a heart that been cleansed and is filled with Love for God and our fellow men and that in a nut shell is Christian Perfection.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2009/10/23 15:31Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2000
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Hey Leo:

Quote:
I agree totally with what you said here - that is exactly the way understand my salvation also. But please read the whole thread. Some of us here are trying to deal with a couple of posters who insist that being born again means being totally without sin as a choice in their lives. They totally deny the truth in Scripture (Lk 18:9-14 and 1 Jn 1:5-10) that every born-again Christian must be humble enough to recognize that sin remains with us as long as we live in the flesh, and that this must be confessed and repented of. Would you claim to be without sin now that you are born again?



I fully understand the conversation going on here. That is why I made the comments that I did. The entire conversation is centered around whether a Christian, if he so chooses, can come to a state of sinlessness in his life. My point is that if we really understand what has been done for us through the atoning work of Christ, then the question, the very discussion itself need not occur.

Logic et.al., like many Christians, seem to be focusing on the action of sin. I am not sure what background Logic comes from, but it seems to be the same old argument that has existed for some time.

One side insists that actions of sin cause one to lose out with God and be damned if not individually repented of before death. They believe in conditional immortality, the condition being living a sinless life or else making sure every infraction is individually dealt with. They contend that salvation is lost through actions of sin. Their focus, unfortunately, is turned toward sin. They are consumed with trying to make sure they do not commit sins. It is the wrong focus and often leads to living a very legalistic life and often a perversion of the gospel as Paul talks about in Galatians.

The other side says that once a person is born again they have no more worries. Their ticket has been purchased and they are allowed to amuse themselves however they wish until time for the train to leave. They contend there is no way to ever lose salvation. They contend that every man and woman must, due to a sin nature in them, sin every day, week, (choose your own time period) and rely on the grace of God to cover that sin.

My point is that both sides are focused on SIN, and this focus will always lead the wrong direction. The whole argument is a symptom of an improper focus on both sides.

Christians need to quit worrying about sin. That issue has been taken care of on the cross. Sin is no longer an issue with God. He has done everything about sin that He will ever do. It is finished!!! We have received the ministry of reconciliation. Through what Christ has done, we are now righteous in the eyes of God if we have been born again.

When we turn our focus to what Christ has done for us and to our relationship with God we will, due to our NEW nature, begin to walk in Holiness without having to strive for it. It will come out as a natural byproduct of who we now are.

I understand the argument. I am just saying that a man or woman who is walking in close personal relationship with God has no need for the argument. They are too busy becoming more and more like Christ and drawing near to Him to worry about sin in their lives at all. If they find themselves missing the mark, which I agree we all WILL DO from time to time, they simply repent, agree with the Holy Spirit on the issue, and continue walking with God.

I hope what I have written will be read, considered, and maybe give everyone a little bit different way to see this.


_________________
Travis

 2009/10/23 16:24Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2000
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
whyme wrote: Perhaps we still have two natures in us after conversion. The Spirit and my spirit war with my sinful flesh. It is still all me but two different parts of me. I'm sure that some of you will find this in error or part of some prior heresy but the Scriptures seem to support the notion. My spirit cannot sin ( the divine nature born by the Spirit within me ) whereas my flesh ( the sinful nature ) which has not been yet fully defeated ( ie., the presence of sin) can and in fact does. I know this sounds psyhzofrenic



The old man, the old nature dies at salvation. The new man is created in righteousness and true holiness. No duality of nature.

The reality is that our new nature is our spirit against which our flesh wars. Our mind is not renewed and is still full of junk from the past. Our body still has weaknesses. Not a duality of natures. A new nature. A soul and body that are not yet made perfect.

Not psychzofrenic at all. Just an unregenerate mind will emotions and body that must be brought under subjection to the Holy Spirit. Romans 12:2.


_________________
Travis

 2009/10/23 16:28Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote:

twayneb wrote:

The old man, the old nature dies at salvation.



Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Here is an exhortation not to sinners, but to a church. Certain expressions in this Epistle show beyond all question the spiritual condition of the members of the church. Paul says that they were "quickened" who had been "dead in trespasses and in sins;" that they were once "afar off, " but were now "made nigh by the blood of Christ; " that they were no more strangers and foreigners, but "fellow-citizens with the saints and of the household of God."

Still again he tells them to forgive one another "even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you," and a few verses after that states: "Ye were sometime darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light."

These expressions undoubtedly declare the saved condition of the people to whom the apostle wrote. And yet to these who were "forgiven" and "light in the Lord" and "of the household of God" he writes: "Put off the old man."

Could anything be plainer?

Does not the reader see that something dark and evil is left in the heart of the regenerated man? That this something which is here called the "old man" is not to be pardoned, but taken away, put off, removed.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2009/10/23 17:45Profile





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