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 Re:

Hi logic. My post was open ended. The fact that you jumped into the fray unsolicited tells me that you felt compelled to respond out of your own volition to defend something that you feel was directed towards you even though it was an open response to your forum tag-team friend. You provide no edification as far as I'm concerned... When the Bible speaks of edification it speaks of the body, so perhaps you should let the body decide whether or not they are edified instead of once again speaking for them. Besides if you think that 'edification' is purely theological then you're mistaken. Yet you only defend edification by restating your theology.

"What's this about ones own righteousness?" logic

Again, how do you know that my post was directed towards you?

"Some mainly stick to topics which need exploring." logic

No, these are the topics YOU want to endlessly proselytise and shove forward. Who are you to determine what needs and what doesn't need explored?? My guess would be that as long as someone disagrees with you, the theology needs to be explored.

You rabbelroused your theology about Psalms, Proverbs, and Song of Songs as NOT being a source for correct doctrine and I quote: 'ESPECIALLY for a Christian', then say you regret it after 'further study'. But is there any remorse for stating such a heresy that could have influenced someone wrongly??? Any humility?? I mean you were so convinced of it when you directed it towards the person who used it to rebutt you at the time. Yet time and time again you used the SAME books and verses thereof to validate your theology. My observation is that you came right back with your sytematic reasoning with the same arrogance that propagated your prior heresy in the first place.

It's obvious that you don't mind sticking your theological neck out to win an argument. That damages credibility. If that's how you originally felt about Psalms et al then obviously their importance to the Word of God for doctrine needed some exploring by you. However, it wasn't explored until after you made the comment three or so months ago. Therefore, I wouldn't trust your own judgment on what topics need exploring.... as exploring the richness of Psalms, Proverbs, and Song of Songs and it's significant, proper, and truthful contribution as dictated by the Holy Spirit seemed to elude you up until your revelation based on 'further study'. I believe you will continue your attempts to propagate and rabbelrouse on one or two theologies because you can't seem to help it. If it were under control you and others would be able to go much longer without starting a new thread with different wording to rehash what's been endlessly debated and proven to provide angst and condescending tit-for-tat remarks that says more about the poster than the theology.

 2009/10/19 7:36
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
ccrider wrote:
Hi logic. My post was open ended.

So, you can't stop sinning when God commands you to.
Why not?
If no one can keep Gods law, then how are they condemned?
It's not that they disobey or rebel, but they would be condemned for a disability.

Quote:
Besides if you think that 'edification' is purely theological then you're mistaken.

I would think that freedom from sin is very edifying.
The knowledge that I don't have to sin and that I can go with out sinning is very wonderful.
But you are so stuck in a mindset that you will deny what God says you can do; that is to not sin.
God's command not to sin implies that He knows you can stop.

You can try to make me look small but all you do is deny the fact of freedom from sin is real.

Quote:
You rabbelroused your theology about Psalms, Proverbs, and Song of Songs as NOT being a source for correct doctrine and I quote: 'ESPECIALLY for a Christian', then say you regret it after 'further study'. But is there any remorse for stating such a heresy that could have influenced someone wrongly??? Any humility?? I mean you were so convinced of it when you directed it towards the person who used it to rebut you at the time. Yet time and time again you used the SAME books and verses thereof to validate your theology. My observation is that you came right back with your systematic reasoning with the same arrogance that propagated your prior heresy in the first place.

It's obvious that you don't mind sticking your theological neck out to win an argument. That damages credibility. If that's how you originally felt about Psalms et al then obviously their importance to the Word of God for doctrine needed some exploring by you. However, it wasn't explored until after you made the comment three or so months ago. Therefore, I wouldn't trust your own judgment on what topics need exploring.... as exploring the richness of Psalms, Proverbs, and Song of Songs and it's significant, proper, and truthful contribution as dictated by the Holy Spirit seemed to elude you up until your revelation based on 'further study'

All I was doing is saying that you can't use a hyperbole literally such as Psalm 58:3 & concerning Psalm 51:5 you shouldn't think that you have the ONLY possible interpretation of it.

Psalms, Proverbs, and Song of Songs does in fact have a poetic nature with hyperbole, one must be careful not to take the poetic nature with hyperbole to far.

Anyway, a lot of people use their bias to their own theology to interpret Scripture with out seeing the logical conclusion.
Such as God only condemns people because they are sinners, but then people are born sinners.
Therefore, people are condemned because they are born and not from anything of themselves.
But then some might say that they are condemned for sin, but they sin because they are sinners; they must sin because of it, therefore, they are condemned by inevitability.

The truth is that people are condemned because they are guilty by choice, but if it is that they [b]can not[/b] obey God, then they are not guilty, but condemned for a disability.
Then people say that the only choice for sinners is to sin; that is not a choice, but a necessity.

The theology which I always seem to refute is nonsense, which is why I do it.
You may call it rabbelrousing, but I call it trying to get it through a bias which is unrealistic, nonsense and make God a tyrant, all from a defence from an interpretation of Scriptures.

I wonder how people could interpret Scriptures as God being such, I would think they would find how to interpret Scripture to justify God and not criminalize Him.
All I can figure out is that they say to themselves, "God is God He can do anything, even be an unjust tyrant and still be just and rightous, even though that contradicts reality."

Quote:
Quote:
"What's this about ones own righteousness?"

Again, how do you know that my post was directed towards you?


I didn't, but could you answer it?

Quote:
Quote:
"Some mainly stick to topics which need exploring."

No, these are the topics YOU want to endlessly proselytize and shove forward.

Because I think they are important.

Quote:
Who are you to determine what needs and what doesn't need explored??

I'm not saying what doesn't need explored

But determining what needs to be explored, who are you to do the same?
If we aren't then why even start new threads?

And those who do start new threads, who are they to determine what needs to be explored?

All I am doing is trying to show the nonsense of some theologies such as I explained above.

Quote:
I believe you will continue your attempts to propagate and rabbelrouse on one or two theologies because you can't seem to help it.

I only want to defend the truth.
The logical conclusions to some theologies do more damage than the people who hold them realize.
Sinners use the theologies of some Christians for the reason to hate God.
They see God as a sadistic tyrant because the theology makes him out to be one.
The sinners have valid points which need to be corrected. But if Christians keep hold of these horrible theologies, they will give the sinners more reason to hate God.
I see why they hate God because it these theologies were true, I would hate God also.

Don't think that they hate God anyway with out those wretched theologies, because my Christian friend almost left the faith when he was newly converted because he thought God was really the way these theologies claim God to be when he started to hear other people talk about God.
I've heard many other new Christians rethink their faith because of this.

Christians defend their theologies by quoting [b]Rom 9:20[/b] [color=990000]Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?[/color]
They think that I am arguing with God, but I am actually coming against their Theology & not God.

 2009/10/19 17:36Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Leo_Grace wrote:
Those who are truly in Christ walk every day in the light of His truth, and it is God's truth that reveals our sinfulness apart from Christ.

Yes, APART from Christ. but we are not APART from Christ, therefore we should not have any sinfulness to be revealed.

Quote:
Recognizing our own sinfulness is not a denial of God's grace, but an acceptance of the truth as we live in the light.

It would be a denial of God's ability to purify us from [b]ALL[/b] sin as we walk in the light, as he is in the light.

Quote:
Do not be deceived. Confession of sin and repentance is part of the daily walk of all believers as long as we remain in the flesh.

The only way for sin to be condemnable is for it to be a volitional choice. Otherwise sin is not disobedience or rebellion or anything of your self to blame.

Since sin is a choice, we may choose to not sin.
We can do this all day.
therefore, we may not need to confess sin and repentant because we have chose to net sin by loving God and keeping His commandments and obeying James 4:8 to cleanse our hands and purify our hearts and Humble ourselves in the sight of the Lord, that He shall lift us up(James 4:10).
Also obeying 2Corinth 7:1 let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

 2009/10/19 17:53Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

I have no desire for argument, but thought it best to post the following Scripture for those willing to listen:

[u][b]God said:[/b][/u]

Isa 66:2 Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?” declares the LORD. “[b]This is the one I esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit[/b], and trembles at my word.
[i]Note: Contrite - filled with a sense of guilt and the desire for atonement; penitent: a contrite sinner.[/i]

[u][b]Teaching his disciples, Jesus said:[/b][/u]

Mt 23:12 [color=CC3300]"For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and [b]whoever humbles himself will be exalted.[/b]"[/color]

Lk 18:11-14 [color=CC3300]"The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’"

“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, [b]‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’"

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted[/b].”[/color]

[u][b]The Apostle James told the believers:[/b][/u]

Jas 5:15-16 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. [b]If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other[/b] so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

[u][b]The Apostle John told the believers:[/b][/u]

1Jn 1:5-10 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

[b]If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.[/b] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

[b]If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.[/b]


Humility and a heightened sensitivity to sin are essential elements towards our sanctification by the Holy Spirit. Denial of the truth that man is sinful is a denial of Christ, the Word of Life (1 Jn 1:10).

 2009/10/20 16:03Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2000
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

I would add to what Leo said one question for consideration. To whom was the epistle of 1 John written? To unregenerate people in the world, or to born again believers? When you have determined the answer to that question, then you can read 1 John 1:9 in its proper context.


_________________
Travis

 2009/10/20 17:50Profile









 Re:

I would just say that there is no security in sin. If we are in sin, we are under the wrath of God. If we want to be under the mercy of God through Jesus Christ, we need to give up or forsake our sins. We must turn from our sins to get saved and we must stay away from sin to stay saved.

 2009/10/22 0:40
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Dear truefaithsav,

You reasoning and rationalizing of your beliefs, no matter how logical they may appear to you, cannot match the authority of the inerrant word of God in Scripture. If you would follow twayneb's suggestion, you will find that the teachings of the apostle John quoted again below, were addressed to born again believers who, as you say, are "already under the mercy of God through Jesus Christ".

John teaches that, as born again believers of God led by the Holy Spirit, we must be sensitive to the sinfulness of our flesh and not be boastful of our justification through Christ - it is not of ourselves "so that no one may boast". It is the Spirit himself that instructs us to be mindful of our sins, and to confess them and repent of them. God our Creator knows what lies in the heart of man, thus these instructions.

1Jn 1:5-10 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

[i][b]If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.[/b][/i]

Heed Scripture, my friend.

 2009/10/22 0:57Profile









 Re:

Quote:
You reasoning and rationalizing of your beliefs, no matter how logical they may appear to you, cannot match the authority of the inerrant word of God in Scripture.



I get my beliefs from the Bible:

1 John 1:5-10 says that we cannot deny that we have sinned. But it says that we can be saved from all sin, "purify us from ALL unrighteousness" and "purifies us from ALL sin" it says. Through Jesus Christ we can be free from all sin. That is why the Apostle John says that whoever is born of God does not commit sin (1 Jn 3:9), and by this we know that we know Him if we keep His commandments (1 Jn 2:3). If you claim to know God but break His commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you (1 Jn 2:4).

Anyone who sins is of the devil the Apostle tells us (1 Jn 3:8). And the Bible says that whosoever lies will be kept outside of the Kingdom (Rev. 22:15, Rev. 21:8), and Jesus said that whoever offends will be out into the furnace of fire (Matt. 13:41-42).

The Bible says that the wrath of God is coming upon the children of disobedience (Eph. 5:6, Col. 3:6) and that God's wrath is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness (Rom. 1:18) and that wrath is upon every soul that does evil (Rom. 2:8-9). If anyone has sin in their life, they are under the wrath of God. If we want to be under the mercy of God, we must forsake our sins which is true repentance (Isaiah 55:7, Prov. 28:13). God never forgives any sin until sin is repented of (Luke 3:3, 13:3, 24:47). Otherwise God gives us a license to sin. God never forgives anyone in their sins. Anyone who is in sin is under the wrath of God. Before Jesus saves us from the wrath of God, Jesus saves us from our sins (Matt. 1:21). That is why we can say that we "were" sinners (1 Cor. 6:11, Rom. 5:8)

Heed Scripture, my friend.

 2009/10/22 1:15
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Dear truefaithsav,

Below is a parable that the Lord Jesus Christ taught to his disciples (believers) who seemed confident in their own righteousness like you are:

[i]Lk 18:9-14 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: [color=CC3300]“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”[/color][/i]

Jesus, whom we both claim (I think) to be our Lord, says we should be humble and repentant of sin in regards to ourselves, because in God's eyes, humility is worthy of exaltation. I believe this teaching and I obey this teaching as one redeemed by Jesus - what about you? You appear to be selective in your obedience.

On the day of my judgment, I will stand before God humble and repentant of my sinfulness, for I know that my heart is deceitful above all things. I know that many times, in an instant of weakness, my heart can boil over in anger, or entertain evil thoughts, or sinful doubts, and for these I will be ever vigilant and always repentant. I can repent of them because I see them in my life with eyes wide open. At the same time, I am obedient to my Lord's commands and avoid sin whenever I can, and most especially I strive to live my life with an overwhelming love for God and for my fellow men. For He has told me that in following the greatest commandment, I am able to fulfill ALL the law and all the prophets.

What about you? Can you stand before God on judgment day and say that you obeyed what Jesus taught his believers should do in Lk 18:9-14? Or will you tell God that you thought other verses were more correct? Will you stand before Him and claim to be without sin because you obeyed the commands of God that you liked in the Bible?

 2009/10/22 11:40Profile
IWantAnguish
Member



Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343
VCU @ Richmond, VA

 Re:

Truefaithsav, when is the last time you sinned?


_________________
Sam Yoon

 2009/10/22 12:45Profile





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