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 Perfection & Security

I thought that this was a great teaching on perfection and security:

It is possible for a Christian to sin (1 Jn. 2:1) and that it is possible for a Christian not to sin (Matt. 5:18; 1 Cor. 10:13; 1 Jn 2:1). God will not make anyone stop sinning, it is our own free choice to sin no more (Jn. 5:14; 8:11). Neither in this life, nor in the next life, will God force anyone to be morally perfect. Moral perfect must be our own choice if it is going to be our own moral character. And those who do not stop sinning in this life will not be morally perfect in the next life (Rev. 22:11).

In order to get saved, we must repent of all our sins. But after that, we still have the ability to sin. If we sin, God is still omniscient and sees us if we sin. God is not blind when we sin, He sees us if we sin ( Prov. 15:3; Eze. 8:12; 9:9; Jer. 32:19; Mal. 2:17; Heb. 4:13).

If a Christian, for example, looks at pornography, they have for the time being lost their salvation. They are temporarily under the condemnation of the law or the wrath of God. They are no longer Christians because they are no longer following Christ. You cannot be a Christian, while you are watching pornography, anymore than you can be a Christian while you are making pornography! The Bible says no sexually immoral person will inherit the kingdom of God (Gal. 5:19), and the blood of Christ does not cover us if we willfully sin (Heb. 10:26-31). They must be restored through repentance (Luke 13:3, James 5:19-20) like King David regained his salvation after committing adultery and murder when he repented (Ps. 51). We needed to turn away from our sins in order to get saved and therefore we must stay away from sin in order to stay saved.

That is why when I meet those going into bars and clubs to get drunk and pick up women, and they say that they are Christians, I can tell them that they are going to hell. They might have been Christians at one point, but now they are backsliden and need to repent and be forgiven. Even Christians have the free will ability to get drunk or to fornicate, but nobody is saved while they are sinning. God forgives us of our sins only after we forsake our sins (Isaiah 55:7). Anyone who is in sin is under the wrath of God (Rom. 1:18) but if we give up our sins God will pardon us.

 2009/10/16 10:26
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re: Perfection & Security

So, would you consider it accurate to say that a "sheep" can become a "goat" and vice-versa perhaps dozens of times in a single day?

Or, to put it another way, someone who comes to Christ be cast out (cf. John 6:37) and re-accepted perhaps dozens of times in a day?


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/10/16 12:21Profile









 Re:

Taylor.... this is yet another obvious attempt to start the one millionth rabbit trail that causes more problems than solutions, more angst than edification. I liken those, who can't seem to help themselves but start things up because no other thread seems interesting enough, as rabblerousers who have not much better to do than endlessly proselytise their theology, and as a natural byproduct.... their own righteousness .....as consistently demonstrated..... so we all can know. If you notice, they stick to mainly one or two topics of theology and rarely go outside their own narrow scope to offer lessons on a variety of theological issues. They reword some topics so the bait looks and smells different, but it just ends up being the same monotonous preaching that everyone just loves to debate... and they are well aware of it. You know as well as I do that some people have stamina so strong that they don't know when to quit, or they enjoy being right so much that there's no more room for growth.... just lesssons to be taught to those here. They can only go so long without debating their expertise before it's time to once again weild their righteous theological sword. If you're not interested in getting out your notebook and pen to be ready for some schooling then the breath represented by your fingertips is most likely to be wasted. But if you're feeling vibrant and steadfast, take your chances.

 2009/10/16 12:40
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

ccrider,

Point taken.

With care in Christ...


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/10/16 14:01Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
ccrider wrote:
Taylor.... this is yet another obvious attempt to start the one millionth rabbit trail that causes more problems than solutions, more angst than edification.

It is very edifying to know that one does not have to sin.

Quote:
I liken those...as rabblerousers who have not much better to do than endlessly proselytise their theology, and as a natural byproduct.... their own righteousness

What's this about ones own righteousness?
Furthermore, it is comonly known that sin is a choice, and since it is a choice, one may always choose not to sin.

Quote:
If you notice, they stick to mainly one or two topics of theology and rarely go outside their own narrow scope to offer lessons on a variety of theological issues.

Some mainly stick to topics which need exploring.

The thought of not being able to go with out sin is to go against Scripture. But some who disagree, saying that they must sin because they can't stop need to know that there is freedom from sin.

 2009/10/16 14:02Profile
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

One thing that seems to stand out in our age as opposed to the past is that propaganda gets so much more credit than it used to.

Propaganda long enough and the undiscerning will believe it, I guess is the hope.

I've just begun to read MacArthur's new book, 'The Jesus You can't Ignore' and he has nailed the problem of the church today, in that it tolerates error for far too long.

Logic and Truthsave, you're wrong, you've been told it umpteen times. You're deceived or you're looking to deceive. Salvation is by grace, something you give lip service to then deny with your propaganda.

Humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God that He may lift you up in due time. God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.

 2009/10/16 22:56Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
ceedub wrote:

Logic and Truthsave, you're wrong, you've been told it umpteen times. You're deceived or you're looking to deceive. Salvation is by grace, something you give lip service to then deny with your propaganda.

How do you know your not the one who's decieved?

You think you can't stop sinning when God says you can by commanding you to stop.

We acknowlege God's command to stop sinning and know He is not a tyrant to command something which we can not do.

I don't say that [b]not[/b] sinning is your salvation, but it is what your suposed to do; not sin.

With your denyng "no sin in your life", your denying that God can do it.
All we say is that God is [b]SO VERY GREAT[/b] that He can do it & does do it; He can keep you from sinning.

We don't deny that we have sin on our record, and we proclaim that God can cleans you from all sin.
God can cleans you from all unrighteousness. (1John 1:7-9)

You are denying this.
Who maight be deceived here?

 2009/10/17 13:27Profile
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

Nice try.

They say that when wolves fight they jump in, do their damage and then jump out for a time.

That's how heretics are.

They do their damage until the heat is turned up and they are under scrutiny. Then they retreat to the truth for a time and play the passive agressive.

If what you said in your last post was all you'd ever said re the subject, and to that degree, then there wouldn't have been the same response.

There's always been those that boasted in themselves. That's why Paul wrote many verses rebuking such nonsense.

 2009/10/18 0:04Profile









 Re:

The doctrines of holiness and conditional security have really edified my life and walk with God. The idea that you can' live free from sin, or that you are eternally secure while you are sinning, are not the truth and doctrine that is after godliness, as the Bible says truth and doctrine promote godliness.

Regarding the question about going from a sheep to a goat twenty times a day, that doesn't make any sense to me because Christians do not sin every day. According to the Apostle John we keep his commandments. If you break His commandments twenty times a day, you are a goat not a sheep. His sheep hear his voice and follow Him, they do not follow sin.

 2009/10/18 10:42
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Those who are truly in Christ walk every day in the light of His truth, and it is God's truth that reveals our sinfulness apart from Christ. Recognizing our own sinfulness is not a denial of God's grace, but an acceptance of the truth as we live in the light. The nearer we draw to God, the more we see of His holiness, and the more we repent of our own sinfulness. Repentance is not a one time event, but a daily walk in humility with God. Unless one is humble enough to admit his weakness, he cannot be empowered by the Spirit towards a repentant and holy life, for he continues to wallow in pride and self-deception.

John was speaking to the believers when he said:

[i]1Jn 1:5-2:2 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. [b]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.[/b]

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense —Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.[/i]

Do not be deceived. Confession of sin and repentance is part of the daily walk of all believers as long as we remain in the flesh. Anyone who claims to be without sin is deceived and has lost all sensitivity to sin in himself.

 2009/10/19 2:36Profile





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