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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Can we maintain spiritual unity with doctrinal diversity in the church?

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Joined: 2004/11/21
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Tulsa OK

 Re:

Walter wrotte:

Quote:
Are the above statements true, or are they FALSE? Does God want all of us to meld together as one,



One of the brothers here said that: "paul said i know nothing among you save for Jesus Christ and Him crucified he meant that he could fellowship with all who live this truth"

This cross makes all the difference in the world. If you have repented of ur sin and come at the foot of the cross for forgiveness and if the burden of ur sins has been rolled away, you have become a new creature in Christ. This is what counts, behold old things have passed away, Jesus in you is now the hope of glory.

I will have fellowship with anyone who knows by experience the power of the blood of Jesus to wash away our sins. Who believes in the atoning death of my Lord on the cross. Who has passed from death to live by putting his faith in the finished work of my Lord. Who knows and loves this wonderful person called Jesus and walks in the love of God thats my brother and sister in the Lord.

"11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds [2] and teachers, [3] 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, [4] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love." Ephesians 4:10-16

Christ has given gifts to the church to build up his body until we all attain to the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God.

Do we know Jesus? If we do, we have eternal life. If we dont know Jesus, all our knowledge about God and the doctrines of grace is head knowledge.

It was Paul who said: "2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."

We are nothing without the love of God. It was Paul who said, "knowledge puffs up but love builds you up." The excelent way is love. Intresting enough yound people come out of theological seminaries hard hearted and with head knowledge that leads to dead and suffocating orthodoxy.

Jesus said you shall know the TRUTH and the TRUTH shall set you free. He is the TRUTH, its not about an "it" but about a Person that salvation comes from. He is the Way to the Father, its not thru belief in a theological system we go to Heaven.

We should have open fellowship with anyone who shows avidence of being born again and is tranformed by the grace of God.



_________________
Redi

 2009/10/15 15:06Profile









 Re: DOCTRINE --YES




To jimp:

The verses you quoted support your position. That position is that we should all love one another, and get along, and let the Gospel be IGNORED.

Paul makes it clear at the beginning of this letter that his reason for writing this epistle is because members of Chloe's household had informed him of divisions in the church. Paul mentions three men by name who had come to him from Corinth (1 Cor. 16:17).

Paul's main purpose in this book is to correct the carnality which had damaged the unity of the believers and to answer specific questions. Verse ten of the first chapter sums up his intent: "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak [u]the same thing[/u] ([b]THE SAME THING= THE SAME DOCTRINE[/b]), and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Paul deals with this disunity in three main areas. First, he counters the division caused over a difference of opinion as to who the people should be following (1 Cor. 1:10-4:21). Some of the church claimed Paul as their spiritual leader, some Apollos, and some Peter (1 Cor. 1:12).

Secondly, Paul reprimands the believers for the immoral conduct of certain individuals (incest-chapter 5; lawsuits-chapter 6; marriage relationships-chapter 7; eating things sacrificed to idols-chapter 8) and the passivity of the others in not dealing with these problems (1 Cor. 5:1-11:16).

Paul even admonishes the man having sexual relations with his fathers wife, and turns him over to Satan! [b]HOW IS THAT FOR SOUND DOCTRINE?????[/b]

[color=990000]4. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, [b] 5. To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus[/color][/b].

[b]He also continues, and indicates that the Church at Corinth, that allowed something like this to go on (excusing fornication and adultery) was not good and much like leaven, that once introduced, will chase the real believers out and fill the Church at Corinth with sinners (Goats, instead of Sheep)![/b]

6. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7. Purge out therefore the old leaven[b] (make those that do these things leave the Church),[/b] that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8.Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Thirdly, Paul deals with the conduct of these Corinthians in their church services (1 Cor. 11:17-14:40). This section includes instructions for the Lord's Supper (chapter 11) and the operation of the gifts in the church (chapters 12-14).

Paul concludes this letter with the most complete arguments found in the New Testament on the resurrection of our bodies (chapter 15). Chapter 16 gives instructions for the collection for the poor saints in Jerusalem and miscellaneous instructions and salutations.

[color=990000]In chapter 15 of 1 Corintihians, Paul even refers to those in attendance at the Church of Corinth, who did not believe in the resurrection of the dead. What did he call them? [b][u]FOOLS[/u][/b][/color]

33. Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 35. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?[b] 36. Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:[/b] 37. And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38. But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. [b] 51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.[/b]

[color=990000][b]So, to sum this up, Paul was acting as a typical orator, at the beginning of his speech, and being nice, and inticing everyone to listen to what he had to say. Very similar to what he did on Mars Hill. Once he got their attention, then he gave them the Doctrine that they were missing, and even turned over one man to Satan, and confronted all of their error and false teachings for the remainder of 1st Corinthians![/color][/b]

Today, many, many people have itching ears, and cannot stand even the word--DOCTRINE. (2 timothy 4:3)

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

jimp wrote:
hi, when paul said i know nothing among you save for Jesus Christ and Him crucified he meant that he could fellowship with all who live this truth anf that was his only firm doctrine that qualified one for fellowship... how baptized,osas, sabbath etc.did not disqualify.jimp Jesus said he who is not against us is with us.

 2009/10/15 22:53









 Re:

Quote:
The Plymouth Brethren movement is instructive. It began when a group of Irishmen discarded the professional clergy and traditional ecclesiology and formed a fellowship "run strictly along New Testament lines." The first schism took place in the mid-19th Century between the Open Brethren, who fellowshipped with all believers, and the Exclusive Brethren, who denied fellowship to anyone who tolerated "compromise," including the Open Brethren. Having disfellowshipped everyone else, the Exclusive Brethren began brawling amongst themselves and by the 20th Century had schismed into no less than 48 separate sects, mostly over modes of baptism: whether it should be in running water or calm, forward or backward, with one plunge or three. One of these, the River Brethren, practiced foot-washing. But then a dispute arose over foot-washing methodology: should one brother wash and another dry, or should both functions be performed by the same brother? They divided into the One-Mode and Two-Mode River Brethren.



Anarchy, Individualism, Schism, etc.

Isn't this where Sola Scriptura joined with Private Interpretation of the Scriptures always leads?

The statement: fellowship "run strictly along New Testament lines."

Would better have read: "run strictly along New Testament lines as interpreted by us"

You've got to be kidding me.

 2009/10/15 23:30









 Re: Solo Scriptura



To orthodox:

No, you have it entirely wrong, brother. Not interpreted by me or you, but taught to us through the Books of the New Testament, as well as the Books of the Old Testament.

In the New Testament, Sound Doctrine is taught to us by the Spirit Breathed Word of God, through the Books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thesallonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James, 1 & 2nd Peter, 1st, 2nd & 3rd John, Jude, and Revelation.

In the Old Testament, Sound Doctrine is taught to us by Spirit Breathed Word of God,, through the Books of: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1st & 2nd Samuel, 1st & 2nd Kings, 1st & 2nd Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Mahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi

Those that want understanding search the Scriptures daily. [b][color=990000]Solo Scriptura[/b][/color]

12. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. [b] 14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.[/b]
(2 timothy 3:12-17)

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

orthodox wrote:
Quote:
The Plymouth Brethren movement is instructive. It began when a group of Irishmen discarded the professional clergy and traditional ecclesiology and formed a fellowship "run strictly along New Testament lines." The first schism took place in the mid-19th Century between the Open Brethren, who fellowshipped with all believers, and the Exclusive Brethren, who denied fellowship to anyone who tolerated "compromise," including the Open Brethren. Having disfellowshipped everyone else, the Exclusive Brethren began brawling amongst themselves and by the 20th Century had schismed into no less than 48 separate sects, mostly over modes of baptism: whether it should be in running water or calm, forward or backward, with one plunge or three. One of these, the River Brethren, practiced foot-washing. But then a dispute arose over foot-washing methodology: should one brother wash and another dry, or should both functions be performed by the same brother? They divided into the One-Mode and Two-Mode River Brethren.



Anarchy, Individualism, Schism, etc.

Isn't this where Sola Scriptura joined with Private Interpretation of the Scriptures always leads?

The statement: fellowship "run strictly along New Testament lines."

Would better have read: "run strictly along New Testament lines as interpreted by us"

You've got to be kidding me.

 2009/10/15 23:50
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, Jesus and Him crucified includes the virgin birth... the sinless life... the death on the cross... the resurrection from the dead...the ascent into heaven,all compose the gospel of salvation by grace through faith in the finished work of Jesus...your behavior like the incestual relationship at corinth can and was restored through Godly love and parental discipline.jimp

 2009/10/16 0:08Profile









 Re:



To jimp:

Have you read the text in regards to the incestural relationship?

This is what you posted, jimp:

Quote:
[b]your behavior like the incestual relationship at corinth can and was restored through Godly love and parental discipline.jimp[/b]



However, this is what the Bible says--- something entirely different!

1. It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
[color=990000][b] 4. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5. To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.[/color][/b]

[color=0000FF][b]I wonder if we read the same Bible? Paul publicly turned this mans flesh over to satan. It surely had nothing to do with "parental discipline", and everything to do with the supernatural power of God, through the prayer of Paul. Just like Job, God had to allow Satan to have access to his flesh. When Paul prayed, just like you and I pray, he had access to the throne room of heaven, and God granted his prayer, and let Satan have access to his flesh.

Later, we read that this man was eventually restored to the Church.[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

jimp wrote:
hi, Jesus and Him crucified includes the virgin birth... the sinless life... the death on the cross... the resurrection from the dead...the ascent into heaven,all compose the gospel of salvation by grace through faith in the finished work of Jesus...your behavior like the incestual relationship at corinth can and was restored through Godly love and parental discipline.jimp

 2009/10/16 0:56









 Re:

Quote:
No, you have it entirely wrong, brother. Not interpreted by me or you, but taught to us through the Books of the New Testament, as well as the Books of the Old Testament.



Ridiculous. The books of the New Testament are inspired and inerrant, yes. But they are not always clear to the reader who does not possess the inside track and intended meanings. An interpretation of the Bible that is false, cannot be properly called inerrant or for that matter the Word of God. And please understand...the Bible DOES need to be interpreted. You already know that. It is self evident in this forum.

Let's listen to a great father of the Church:

John Chrysostom


"[Paul commands,] ‘Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word or by our letter’ [2 Thess. 2:15]. From this it is clear that they did not hand down everything by letter, but there is much also that was not written. Like that which was written, the unwritten too is worthy of belief. So let us regard the tradition of the Church also as worthy of belief. Is it a tradition? Seek no further" (Homilies on Second Thessalonians [A.D. 402]).


Quote:
In the New Testament, Sound Doctrine is taught to us by the Spirit Breathed Word of God, through the Books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thesallonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James, 1 & 2nd Peter, 1st, 2nd & 3rd John, Jude, and Revelation.



Really glad you brought this up. I have a question for you. On what authority do you rely to KNOW that each and every single one of these books belong IN the New Testament Canon? How were they deemed so? Who made the decision?

Quote:
In the Old Testament, Sound Doctrine is taught to us by Spirit Breathed Word of God,, through the Books of: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1st & 2nd Samuel, 1st & 2nd Kings, 1st & 2nd Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Mahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi



Seems to me like you are missing a few. But then prove to me that this list is correct. Also, before you do, please watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aozoXFdr80

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JInrWhks9c

Quote:
12. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 timothy 3:12-17)



This passage doesn’t teach formal sufficiency for the Scriptures. You are extrapolating onto the text what isn’t there. If we look at the overall context of this passage, we can see that Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times (cf. 2 Tim. 1:13–14; 2:2; 3:14). And to use an analogy, let’s examine a similar passage:

"And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ" (Eph. 4:11–15).

If 2 Timothy 3 proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture, then, by analogy, Ephesians 4 would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastors and teachers for the attainment of Christian perfection. In Ephesians 4, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church. This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3, yet it does not even mention Scripture.

So if all non-scriptural elements are excluded in 2 Timothy, then, by analogy, Scripture would logically have to be excluded in Ephesians. It is far more reasonable to recognize that the absence of one or more elements in one passage does not mean that they are nonexistent. The Church and Scripture are both equally necessary and important for teaching.

Let's listen to one more eminent church father:

Basil the Great

"Of the dogmas and messages preserved in the Church, some we possess from written teaching and others we receive from the tradition of the apostles, handed on to us in mystery. In respect to piety, both are of the same force. No one will contradict any of these, no one, at any rate, who is even moderately versed in matters ecclesiastical. Indeed, were we to try to reject unwritten customs as having no great authority, we would unwittingly injure the gospel in its vitals; or rather, we would reduce [Christian] message to a mere term" (The Holy Spirit 27:66 [A.D. 375]).

 2009/10/16 14:54









 Re:




To orthodox:

“Saint John Chrysostom” was nothing more than a Roman Catholic Gnostic, that would not know the truth if he walked into it. The “Bible” that he studied from was created by other Gnostics, and eventually became the "Roman Catholic Bible":


“Of these confessions we are profoundly realized and make public to all beings daily in the Gnostic Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass”

This is the link to the above:
[url=http://www.geocities.com/ega_church/hist1.html]St. John Chrysostom, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass[/url]

[color=990000]Who were these Gnostics, who cut and pasted God's Spirit breathed Word, and created their own Bible? [u]Their Bible that has 7 extra false books, created by them (1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, Tobit, Judith, Additions to Esther, Wisdom of Solomon, Baruch, Additions to Daniel, Prayer of Manasses, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Ecclesiasticus (Sirach)[/u]

Noah Websters 1828 Dictionary of the English Language has this to say about them:

GNOS'TIC, n. nostic. [L. gnosticus; Gr. to know.]
The Gnostics were a sect of philosophers that arose in the first ages of christianity,[u] who pretended they were the only men who had a true knowledge of the christian religion. They formed for themselves a system of theology, agreeable to the philosophy of Pythagoras and Plato, to which they accommodated THEIR INTERPRETATIONS OF SCRIPTURE.[/u] They held that all natures, intelligible, intellectual and material, are derived by successive emanations from the infinite fountain of deity. These emanations they called oeons. These doctrines were derived from the oriental philosophy.

GNOS'TIC, a. nostic. Pertaining to the Gnostics or their doctrines.

GNOS'TICISM, n. nos'ticism. The doctrines, principles or systems of philosophy taught by the Gnostics.[/color]

[b]A BRIEF HISTORY OF MODERN TRANSLATIONS:
"Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit: but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." —Matt. 7:17-18

Note the roots of corruption.

I. Justin Martyr (100 A.D.)

A. He was born a pagan, and died in the robes of a pagan priest.

B. He was the first to mix Gnosticism with Christianity. Gnosticism was a heretical doctrine which taught that Christ was created by God the Father. Funk and Wagnall's Standard Dictionary defines Gnosticism as "A philosophical and religious system (first to sixth century) teaching that knowledge rather than faith was the key to salvation." Many scholars today place their knowledge above faith in God's word.

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" —Rom. 10:17

C. Historian Dr. Benjamin G. Wilkinson wrote, "In the teachings of Justin Martyr, we begin to see how muddy the stream of pure Christian doctrine was running among the heretical seats fifty years after the death of the apostle John."

("Which Bible?". ed. Dr. David 0. Fuller, Grand Rapids International Pub., Grand Rapids, Mica., 49501, p. 191)

II. Tatian (150 A.D.)

A. He was a disciple of Justin Martyr.
Like Martyr, he also embraced Gnosticism.

B. Tatian wrote a harmony of the gospels using the Christian Scriptures and the Gnostic gospels, [u]thus omitting Scripture (such as John 8:1-11; and Mark 16.9-20). His "Harmony of the Gospels" was so corrupt that the Bishop of Syria threw out 200 copies.[/u]

III. Clement of Alexandria (200 A.D.)

A. Clement was a disciple of Tatian (Remember Luke 6:40-"The disciple is not above his master: but everyone that is perfect shall be as his master.")

B.[u] Clement taught that there was no real heaven or hell, no blood atonement of Christ, and no infallible Bible.[/u]

C. He used the Gnostic Scriptures to teach his students.

D. He founded the school of Theology in Alexandria Egypt.

IV. Origen (184-254 A.D.)

A. Origen was a disciple of Clement of Alexandria.

B.He held to the same doctrine as Clement, plus he taught baptism was necessary for babies to gain salvation.

C. Origen stated, "The Scriptures are of little use to those who understand them as they are written." (Ibid. p. 192).

D. Dr. Wilkinson stated, "When we come to Origen, we speak the name of him who did the most of all to create and give direction to the forces of apostasy down through the centuries." (Ibid.).

E. Origen was one of the first textual critics. His textual work in both the N.T. and the O.T. (the "Hexapla") was the basis for two of the most corrupt manuscripts used by the Roman Catholic Church. (Vaticanus and Sinaiticus).

F.Origen developed a method of Biblical interpretation which is called "allegorization". Origen believed the Bible was only a set of stories that illustrate truth, but not literal facts. He believed Christ to be created and subordinate to the Father (the same as Jehovah's Witnesses), the pre-existence of the soul before birth (the same as the Mormons), and the final restoration of all spirits (Universal Salvation). (see Dr. Earle Cairns "Christianity Through The Centuries", Zondervan Publishing House, p. 122).

V. Eusebius (260-340 A.D.)

A. He was trained at Origen's school in Alexandria.

B. Eusebius was the editor of two Greek manuscripts (mss.) named Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. These two mss. were discredited and abandoned by early Christians as being corrupt. ("Which Bible?" p. 139,143).[/b]

[color=990000]These (Vaticanus and Sinaiticus)are Roman Catholic mss. and were not used by Protestant Christians until 1881. These two mss. are the basis for Roman Catholic Bibles and every major English translation of the Bible since 1901. These mss. were not the ones used for the King James Bible.[/color]

[b]C. Eusebius was Roman Catholic in his doctrine (see his book, "Ecclesiastical History", Vols. 1-5).

D.He was commissioned by Emperor Constantine to make 50 copies of Scripture for the Roman church. Eusebius copied the Gnostic Scriptures and Vaticanus and Sinaiticus.

VI. Jerome (340-420 A.D.)
A. Like Eusebius, [u]Jerome was Roman Catholic in doctrine.[/u]

B.Jerome translated the Greek mss. of Vaticanus and Sinaiticus into Latin (called Jerome's Latin Vulgate). This was the official Bible of the Roman Catholic Church.

C. The ms. Vaticanus was placed in the Vatican library, while the ms. Sinaiticus was abandoned in a Catholic monastery, and they were not used for the next 1,500 years.

VII. Tischendorf (1869)
A. He was the first Protestant to find and use the mss. of Vaticanus and Sinaiticus.
B. Tischendorf was a liberal theologian.

VIII. Westcott and Hort (1881)

A.They used Vaticanus and Sinaiticus (the text created by the Gnostics, above) to produce a new Greek N.T.. This Greek N.T. is not the same as the one used for the KJB nor during the Reformation.

B. Their Greek N.T. was the basis for the Revised Version (RV) of 1881 and the basic Greek text for all modern translations such as the RSV, TEV, NASV, N.TV, etc.

C. The Greek text of Westcott and Hort (W & H) differs from the Greek text of the King James Bible (the Received Text) 5,788 times, or 10% of the text. (For examples, see the section "A Brief Comparison of Bible translations".)

D. Since all modern translations are based on the work of W & H, it would do us well to know the theology of these two men.

WESTCOTT: "I wish I could see to what forgotten truth Mariolatry (Mary-worship) bears witness."

"No one now, I suppose, holds that the first three chapters of Genesis, for example, give a literal history I could never understand how anyone reading them with open eyes could think they did."

HORT: "Mary-worship and Jesus-worship have very much in common."

"Protestantism is only parenthetical and temporary."

"The pure Romish view (Catholic) seems to be nearer, and more likely to lead to the truth than the Evangelical."

"Evangelicals seem to me perverted rather than untrue."

These men did not hold to sound doctrine; instead they have turned, "...away their ears from the truth, and she be turned unto fables." —2 Tim. 4:4

NOTE: Where the KJB and the Catholic Bible (such as the New American Bible) differ, the NIV and the NASV agree with the Catholic Bible. The Bible says, "For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: —2 Corinthians 2:17a. The prophet Amos wrote, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord." —Amos 8:11 [/b]


Sincerely,

Walter

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orthodox wrote:
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No, you have it entirely wrong, brother. Not interpreted by me or you, but taught to us through the Books of the New Testament, as well as the Books of the Old Testament.



Ridiculous. The books of the New Testament are inspired and inerrant, yes. But they are not always clear to the reader who does not possess the inside track and intended meanings. An interpretation of the Bible that is false, cannot be properly called inerrant or for that matter the Word of God. And please understand...the Bible DOES need to be interpreted. You already know that. It is self evident in this forum.

Let's listen to a great father of the Church:

John Chrysostom


"[Paul commands,] ‘Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word or by our letter’ [2 Thess. 2:15]. From this it is clear that they did not hand down everything by letter, but there is much also that was not written. Like that which was written, the unwritten too is worthy of belief. So let us regard the tradition of the Church also as worthy of belief. Is it a tradition? Seek no further" (Homilies on Second Thessalonians [A.D. 402]).


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In the New Testament, Sound Doctrine is taught to us by the Spirit Breathed Word of God, through the Books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thesallonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James, 1 & 2nd Peter, 1st, 2nd & 3rd John, Jude, and Revelation.



Really glad you brought this up. I have a question for you. On what authority do you rely to KNOW that each and every single one of these books belong IN the New Testament Canon? How were they deemed so? Who made the decision?

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In the Old Testament, Sound Doctrine is taught to us by Spirit Breathed Word of God,, through the Books of: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1st & 2nd Samuel, 1st & 2nd Kings, 1st & 2nd Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Mahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi



Seems to me like you are missing a few. But then prove to me that this list is correct. Also, before you do, please watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aozoXFdr80

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JInrWhks9c

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12. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 timothy 3:12-17)



This passage doesn’t teach formal sufficiency for the Scriptures. You are extrapolating onto the text what isn’t there. If we look at the overall context of this passage, we can see that Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times (cf. 2 Tim. 1:13–14; 2:2; 3:14). And to use an analogy, let’s examine a similar passage:

"And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ" (Eph. 4:11–15).

If 2 Timothy 3 proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture, then, by analogy, Ephesians 4 would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastors and teachers for the attainment of Christian perfection. In Ephesians 4, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church. This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3, yet it does not even mention Scripture.

So if all non-scriptural elements are excluded in 2 Timothy, then, by analogy, Scripture would logically have to be excluded in Ephesians. It is far more reasonable to recognize that the absence of one or more elements in one passage does not mean that they are nonexistent. The Church and Scripture are both equally necessary and important for teaching.

Let's listen to one more eminent church father:

Basil the Great

"Of the dogmas and messages preserved in the Church, some we possess from written teaching and others we receive from the tradition of the apostles, handed on to us in mystery. In respect to piety, both are of the same force. No one will contradict any of these, no one, at any rate, who is even moderately versed in matters ecclesiastical. Indeed, were we to try to reject unwritten customs as having no great authority, we would unwittingly injure the gospel in its vitals; or rather, we would reduce [Christian] message to a mere term" (The Holy Spirit 27:66 [A.D. 375]).

 2009/10/16 17:28









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To jimp:

The verses you quoted support your position. That position is that we should all love one another, and get along, and let the Gospel be IGNORED.



Walter is right, as always, jimp. Your method of Bible interpretation is novel, to say the least. You're saying that when Jesus said, "Love one another," what he really meant was "Love one another." This sort of free-wheeling, exotic interpretation of Scripture is bound to incite controversy. Let's stick with the plain meaning of the text: when Jesus said "love one another" he meant "love sound doctrine."

 2009/10/16 18:22









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Really glad you brought this up. I have a question for you. On what authority do you rely to KNOW that each and every single one of these books belong IN the New Testament Canon? How were they deemed so? Who made the decision?



Even the mighty Walter preferred to duck that one. Even Luther had a tough time with this one, because the answer, of course, is that THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH chose which 27 books to include in the Bible.

 2009/10/16 18:41





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