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elected
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Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Can we maintain spiritual unity with doctrinal diversity in the church?

One day in heaven we will see catholics,orthodoxs,lutherans,baptists, methodist,presbyterians,pentecostals,calvinists, arminians ect, ect. All these people will be there not because of the isms they believed or denominations they joined but because above all they have received the gift of eternal life by trusting Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

One day out of heaven the New Jerusalem will descent to the new earth and heavens and the christians will be the New Jerusalem and the Bride of Christ. No man will be an island in heaven, all the redeemed will be part of the all and yet distinct as persons and our all and sufficiency is and will be God. We will be unitied with God and be in the image of his Son. Love,peace,happiness,songs of praise,unity,freedom,full knowledge,eternal life,truth,joy,comfort,rest and true fulfillment, we will find there and God himself will be our portion.

We here in this world know in part,thats what Paul said. We have a limited knowledge of God. Its impossible for us mortals to see God as he is in his glory in this life we live. In heaven we will know him as he is and will wonder at his infinite majesty, glory, amazing grace and unconditional love of God.

Now lets be down to earth and accept the sad fact that the sons of God, the redeemed of the Lord, the saints, dont live in spiritual unity with all their brothers & sisters in Christ. Our prejudices and ignorances have build up walls of seperation between us. Our writen or unwriten creeds forbid us or at least make it uneasy for us live in unity at the same local church with people of different convictions, confessions and creeds like: baptists, pentecostals,presbyterians,mothodists ect.

God's perfect will is that we be holy, spotless and blameless and walk in the light as He is in the light. He desires us to live in daily fellowship with Jesus and make disciples of all nations, preach the gosple, witness of Jesus and build up the church of Christ and be One with Christ and in spiritual unity with each other and love each other.

Unfortunatlry lack of knowledge, lack of humility,lack of revelation brings division and schism in the church of God. Our creeds, theologies,denominational structures, forms of worship, church patterns, contribute to disunity & seperation. Add to that a cunning devil who behide the scenes works out his dark schemes to bring disunity in the body of Christ and plant dissension in the hearts of the brethren.

The clasical expample is John Wesley the founder of methodism and George Whitefield one of the greatest evangelists of modern times. These two men were Spirit filled and godly with hearts on fire for the glory of God and burdened for the salvation of the lost. They brought thousands & thousands to the cross & the kingdom of God. These two men had their theological disagreements and conflicts, they could not permanantly join their forces in one camp and unify the soldiers of Christ in their fight agaisnt the common adversery.

The best of calvinism or arminiansm falls short to the standard of the Word of God, these theological systems are imperfect. Every theological system thru out church history after the aposples passed away, have been inadequate in knowledge and unbalanced or mixed with error. Christian often have been emphasing one truth to the neglect of the other truth(s).

Is it Gods perfect will that his children join denominations and live in schisms and divisions ?
I dont think so, but God in his mercy permits such things to happend and overpasses their ignorance and blesses his godly people that are part of diffrent theological camps or evangelical groups.

There is one Lord, One baptism, one faith,one love, one church, one Spirit, one bible, one gosple,one heaven but alas! hundreds of isms, names & denominations.

P.S. Edited my post for a mistake




_________________
Redi

 2009/10/13 19:07Profile









 Re: Can we maintain spiritual unity with doctrinal diversity in the church?

amen. That was wonderful forthtelling, sorely needed. Beloved brother, you captured the Heart of Jesus' High Priestly Prayer in John 17.

I love you in the Lord, neil

 2009/10/13 22:00
elharris
Member



Joined: 2009/8/10
Posts: 59


 Re: Can we maintain spiritual unity with doctrinal diversity in the church?

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; [b]and avoid them.[/b]


AVOID: ekklino, to bend out of the regular line, bent outwards or AWAY; to trun away from, SHUN. Bullinger's Critical Lexicon


None of those groups believe the exact same thing. But REGARDLESS, to fellowship together in the manner you suggest, would lead one to directly disobey this commandment.


In effect it wouldn't matter what gospel you believed, or what Church you belonged to, because to fellowship in the manner you suggest would make every one of them guilty of disobeying this COMMAND!


Oh well, it's only a "commandment". Let's forgo it in the name of Eccumenical "unity". After all doesn't the end justify the means. We do after all want to move the "gospel". That one who's commands we are breaking in order to further it.


1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.


Again to do as you suggest, would be to directly disobey this command, and the actual gospel itself.



1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?


CARNAL MEN, can easily join in UNITY to a LIE, and not have the truth of the original understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ.



1 Cor 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

1 Cor 11:19 [size=large]For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.[/size]



One is approved by rightly dividing the word of TRUTH 2 Tim 2:15. God allows men to corrupt the truth just to see who really loves him and who does not.



ALL THESE ECCUMENICAL GROUPS, that you suggest we join, corrupt the truth, and are being gathered together for the last days. I would say that if you love the truth and are seeking it, the LAST place you want to be is with them, when the Lord comes.



Paul knew that the prophecies of the OT and those of Jesus Christ, foretold a great apostasy away from the teachings of Christ, to ANOTHER GOSPEL. That is the gospel that these churches today teach and join in unity on. The Eccumenical movement is the heigth of apostasy and SIN.



Those in the first century Paul was writing to were taught THE TRUTH. And there is to be unity in truth. BUT NOT IN ERROR. In fact to fellowship with believers that you think are in error is SIN.



2 John 1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in [b]the truth;[/b] and not I only, but also all they that have known [b]the truth;[/b]

2 For [b]the truth's[/b] sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.

3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, [b]in truth[/b] and love.

4 [b]I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.[/b]

5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

6 [b]And this is love, that we walk after his commandments (in the TRUTH)[/b]. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

9 [b]Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. (this is what it means to confess Jesus Christ come in flesh.)

10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:[/b]


Now do I need to repeat that?


10 [b]If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:[/b]


What did Jesus say about "unity"?


Matt 10:34 [b]Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.[/b]

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.


TRUTH causes DIVISION!

Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

John 7:43 So there was a division among the people because of him.

John 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

John 10:19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.


So I suppose we are just supposed to go and hang out with these dudes.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people,[b] even as there shall be false teachers among you,[/b] who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


Many of those you suggest we join in "unity" with are these very types here.



2 Tim 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 [b]Having a form of godliness,[/b] but denying the power thereof: [b]from such turn away.[/b]


It's talking about "Christians" here. "Having a form of godliness".


Oh, and then there's these folks.


2 Thes 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; [b]because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.[/b]

11[b] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth,[/b] but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and [b]belief of the truth:[/b]

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.


And as you may remember one of those "traditions", was that you withdrew and avioded every brother who walked contrary. Don't even let them in your house, let alone go to theirs.


Any thing outside of the truth, and I sin by fellowshipping with it. And I'm not supposed to partner up with it in the name of some false unity.


Everything you said is basically a lie. Is anti-truth of the original gospel, and therefore ultimately "anti-christ". That is claiming you are FOR Christ, but in truth you are AGAINST Christ, because you promote a teaching that is contrary to what he actually taught.


We are to COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM, meaning the very churches and most ESPECIALLY the Eccumenical movement of which you speak and be SEPARATE.


Yes your post sounds all "loving" and "tollerant" in it's push for diversity. But the truth is what you espouse is not LOVE at all. It's just wishy washy error that will lead people straight to hell, because it's based on lies and not on what the actual scripturs say. It is not PROPHECY or as your ardent admirer stated "forthtelling". The belief is in fact abominable.

Quote:
Add to that a cunning devil who behide the scenes works out his dark schemes to bring disunity in the body of Christ and plant dissension in the hearts of the brethren.




Let me see if I can explain this. What you said here may have been true in the first century church, when they were all established and walking in the truth.

HOWEVER that was 2000 years ago and what you have today are people walking in heresies and others trying to find the truth.

TODAY it is the TRUTH that causes division, and God is the one behind it.


It is your belief, planted in your heart that is truly of the devil. For it is not the truth of the gospel AT ALL.


"Neither bid them godspeed."
El Harris





 2009/10/14 1:00Profile









 Re:




To elharris:

I love the way you have presented your argument. How is that? With the support of the Holy Scriptures--- the Doctrine--[b]The truth of Gospel in general-- 9. Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. (Titus 1:9) “that they may adorn the Doctrine of God our Savior in all things[/b] (Titus 2:9).

Now, compare those that are in opposition to your position, and what do you see? Nothing more than words, and feelings, and thoughts, with very little, if any Bible Scripture to support their position.

And, so it goes. Those that use the Doctrine of the Bible to support their positions, and those who use their own feelings and thoughts to support their position.

We will not all be united as a "Church" body until the New Heaven and the New Earth. Until then, we will have those who agree, and those who disagree with the Doctrine of the Bible.


Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

elharris wrote:
Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; [b]and avoid them.[/b]


AVOID: ekklino, to bend out of the regular line, bent outwards or AWAY; to trun away from, SHUN. Bullinger's Critical Lexicon


None of those groups believe the exact same thing. But REGARDLESS, to fellowship together in the manner you suggest, would lead one to directly disobey this commandment.


In effect it wouldn't matter what gospel you believed, or what Church you belonged to, because to fellowship in the manner you suggest would make every one of them guilty of disobeying this COMMAND!


Oh well, it's only a "commandment". Let's forgo it in the name of Eccumenical "unity". After all doesn't the end justify the means. We do after all want to move the "gospel". That one who's commands we are breaking in order to further it.


1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.


Again to do as you suggest, would be to directly disobey this command, and the actual gospel itself.



1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?


CARNAL MEN, can easily join in UNITY to a LIE, and not have the truth of the original understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ.



1 Cor 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

1 Cor 11:19 [size=large]For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.[/size]



One is approved by rightly dividing the word of TRUTH 2 Tim 2:15. God allows men to corrupt the truth just to see who really loves him and who does not.



ALL THESE ECCUMENICAL GROUPS, that you suggest we join, corrupt the truth, and are being gathered together for the last days. I would say that if you love the truth and are seeking it, the LAST place you want to be is with them, when the Lord comes.



Paul knew that the prophecies of the OT and those of Jesus Christ, foretold a great apostasy away from the teachings of Christ, to ANOTHER GOSPEL. That is the gospel that these churches today teach and join in unity on. The Eccumenical movement is the heigth of apostasy and SIN.



Those in the first century Paul was writing to were taught THE TRUTH. And there is to be unity in truth. BUT NOT IN ERROR. In fact to fellowship with believers that you think are in error is SIN.



2 John 1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in [b]the truth;[/b] and not I only, but also all they that have known [b]the truth;[/b]

DELETED




 2009/10/14 1:52









 Re: Can we maintain spiritual unity with doctrinal diversity in the church?

Your proposition is well-reasoned and in the Spirit of Jesus' commandment, "love one another." But it does present certain problems for us fundamentalists. The fundamental tenet of fundamentalism is that we are saved by faith alone, and that "faith" means "correct doctrine." Therefore we express our love for the brethren by imposing correct dogma on them, in order to save their souls. When confronted with error or compromise, we have a divine mandate to hurl arrows, firebrands and death until our theological enemies are destroyed and heresy has been expurgated. See the John 3:16 of fundamentalism, 2 Tim. 4:2

 2009/10/14 8:25
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7469
Mississippi

 Re:

And it is still possible to embrace absolute correct doctrine and still miss heaven. Don't for one minute think that correct doctrine will save you. Even people who did miracles in the name of Jesus will miss heaven.

People can become so focused on doctrine they miss the person who generated it at the beginning.

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2009/10/14 8:39Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3394
East TN (for now)

 Re: love one another

Quote:

LoinGirder wrote:
....Jesus' commandment, "love one another." ... does present certain problems for us fundamentalists.


Yes it certainly does!!

:-( :-P ;-) 8-)


_________________
Lisa

 2009/10/14 8:41Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3394
East TN (for now)

 Re: correct doctrine: is it all THAT????

Quote:
ginnyrose wrote:
And it is still possible to embrace absolute correct doctrine and still miss heaven.

People can become so focused on doctrine they miss the person who generated it at the beginning.
ginnyrose


Amen, I wholeheartedly agree with you on this post!


_________________
Lisa

 2009/10/14 8:43Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3394
East TN (for now)

 Re: Can we maintain spiritual unity with doctrinal diversity in the church?

Quote:
elected wrote:
These two men had their theological disagreements and conflicts, they could not permanently join their forces in one camp and unify the soldiers of Christ in their fight against the common adversary.


I daresay, when they got to the "other side" they did in fact see how easy it would have been! There is no sadness over there, in spite of their shortcomings, we have to trust that God had He way and all things worked together for good to them who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose. (An example: My sons are not perfect and in spite of me (an imperfect mother) - I see God working in their lives.

Quote:
elected wrote:
Can we maintain spiritual unity with doctrinal diversity in the church?


Back to your original question... bro elected, "man" cannot keep any type of unity. But when our focus is on Jesus - high and lifted up - then we can!


_________________
Lisa

 2009/10/14 8:52Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Quote:

ginnyrose wrote:
And it is still possible to embrace absolute correct doctrine and still miss heaven. Don't for one minute think that correct doctrine will save you. Even people who did miracles in the name of Jesus will miss heaven.

People can become so focused on doctrine they miss the person who generated it at the beginning.

ginnyrose




Perhaps you all are talking about a kind of doctrine that is different that what is addressed in Scripture. 1Timothy 4:16 says "Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers." There are doctrines that do save. (God, sin, the cross and atonement) They save because these doctrines are nothing more than the teaching of Christ and what he has done. I presume everyone is talking about other doctrines.

 2009/10/14 9:15Profile





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