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ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re: Solid Rock

Hi all,

Does anyone know what scriptures Art uses to substantiate his reasoning (excuse the word crsschk8-))?

Blessings


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/9/22 7:43Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: My Understanding and Rendition of Art Katz's Eschatology

Quote:
Does anyone know what scriptures Art uses to substantiate his reasoning



Hi ZekeO,

There are a combination of passages that he uses including Ezekiel 37, Psalm 102, Romans 9-11 and others. In his thinking Israel (the Jews) will be utterly reduced to very dry bones. There will be another massive annhilation of the Jews that will be greater than the Holocaust. In his scenerio it is necessary for this time of Jacob's trouble to bring the Jews, who are the embodiment of all human aspirations and endeavors apart from God, to a place of utter helplessness, acknowledgment, and reliance upon God. This is taken from Ezekiel 37:11 (which is a passage of scripture that has not possible been fulfilled yet) when the House of Israel will declare "Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off."

Art suggests that these many hundreds of years since this passage was penned God has been waiting for the Jews to make this admission and they have not yet. Not even 6 million dead in the Holocaust caused them to make this statement in Ezekiel 37. His reasoning follows that they will not admit that God's hand has been heavy upon them- but rather would rather believe that the catastrophies that have befallen them have been either historical abherrations or something else other than God's JUDGMENT.

The Jews refuse to humble themselves and admit that God is the sovereign Lord over all creation and that the enemy did not level destruction on them while His back was turned. God is trying to break them until they believe that God is utterly their only hope and humble themselves before Him and rely upon Him to the uttermost and cease with all of their human endeavors including Zionism.

Art believes God has allowed the "human Zionist efforts" to take place in order to allow the noose to be tightened around their necks as their enemies are growing more hostile towards them every day. Islamic fanatical bitter relentless self-destructive hatred is but one facet of the growing anti-semetic sentiment that is growing throughout the world.

This will climax in a devistation leveled upon Jews, where-ever they are found, for it is the time of Jacob's trouble and it will be a crime to even show sympathy for the mal-treatment and wholesale genocide that the Jews will endure.

At this point Art intrepets the 'servants' of Psalm 102 to be the Church, who identifies with their suffering and in that COMPASSION demonstrate the reality of God (who demonstrates His unmerited love)- to them bringing them one step closer to repentance. in spite of all the reasons that the Church may have to follow the flow and hate the Jews, they will look on them with compassion as God does all those who do not deserve it.

He forsees that the Church will have to be utterly in tune with God and be full of His glory and purpose--- totally dead to themselves including every element that they would hold dear- up to and including the pride of their "spirituality." This is in keeping with Ezekiel 37, as Art interprets it, in that Ezekiel the priest (as representing the Church as the "Son of Man company" and Royal Priesthood) will at some point and in some way be called forth of God to speak to the four winds and command the Pneuma (breath of God) to enter into this people. This will be the final test as many would heretofor obey God, but this will be one command that many will not swallow. It will fly against a persons spiritual nature to command God to do anything- and just as Peter when God said "rise Peter slay and eat" many will say "Not so LORD!" Yet God has commended "Son of Man prophesy to the wind..." (Ezekiel 37:11, etc.).

When this happens the finality of all that God has been working in redemptive history will be brought to its soteriological eschatological end, as the restoration of the Jews will be as Paul said, "Life from the dead." All the Jews who remain alive will be saved- the others will have been mercilessly slaughtered. And in their salvation they will be a demonstration of God's sovereign greatness that none could deny, gainsay, or resist. And if they do anathama awaits them.

Herein we see the crux of Art's eschatological theology- it is the necessity of the Church to be it's God appointed demonstration of the awe, wonder, and glory of the Supreme Sovereign God in such REALITY that philosophies and theories that deny Him His rightful place are impoverished and laid waste- and in that grandure of demonstration through their own personal deaths to all that they hold in their humaness and self- utterly crucified with Christ to the point themselves of dry bones- by the Holy Spirit- that in that dry death RESURRECTION power and glory will come forth and provoke Israel to jealousy and in turn Israel will be converted and return the favor.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/22 8:39Profile
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 Re:

Hi Robert
I note your disclaimer that this is your understanding of Art's position, but if you really do believe that this is what Art believes these comments are for you too.

Quote:
This is taken from Ezekiel 37:11 (which is a passage of scripture that has not possible been fulfilled yet) when the House of Israel will declare "Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off."

But I believe there has already been a spiritual fulfillment of this prophecy. The Son of Man prophesies to the dry bones of the house of Israel and there is a response but it remains lifeless. This is what 'the Son of Man' did. He prophesied to the house of Israel for 3 years and told them that God would breathe breath(Spirit/wind) into them. This was a reformation of the bodies but no revival. The parts came together but they were still without life. Next the Son of Man is required to prophesy to the Spirit(wind/breath) and as a consequence Spirit/breath/wind enter and they stand up an exceeding great army. On His ascent to the Father, the Son of Man 'sent' the Spirit and the dry bones revived.


Quote:
Art suggests that these many hundreds of years since this passage was penned God has been waiting for the Jews to make this admission and they have not yet. Not even 6 million dead in the Holocaust caused them to make this statement in Ezekiel 37. His reasoning follows that they will not admit that God's hand has been heavy upon them- but rather would rather believe that the catastrophies that have befallen them have been either historical abherrations or something else other than God's JUDGMENT.

Please tell me that I am misreading this and that Art doesn't really believe that Auschwitz was God's judgement.


Quote:
Art believes God has allowed the "human Zionist efforts" to take place in order to allow the noose to be tightened around their necks as their enemies are growing more hostile towards them every day. Islamic fanatical bitter relentless self-destructive hatred is but one facet of the growing anti-semetic sentiment that is growing throughout the world.

Well, he may believe it but he has no biblical warrant for his belief.


Quote:
At this point Art intrepets the 'servants' of Psalm 102 to be the Church, who identifies with their suffering and in that COMPASSION demonstrate the reality of God (who demonstrates His unmerited love)- to them bringing them one step closer to repentance. in spite of all the reasons that the Church may have to follow the flow and hate the Jews, they will look on them with compassion as God does all those who do not deserve it.

This is extra-biblical revelation not interpretation. There is not much difference between this kind of exposition and our old friend Jake. This is not 'exogesis', drawing from the text but 'eisogesis' inserting ideas into the text.


Quote:
He forsees that the Church will have to be utterly in tune with God and be full of His glory and purpose--- totally dead to themselves including every element that they would hold dear- up to and including the pride of their "spirituality." This is in keeping with Ezekiel 37, as Art interprets it, in that Ezekiel the priest (as representing the Church as the "Son of Man company" and Royal Priesthood) will at some point and in some way be called forth of God to speak to the four winds and command the Pneuma (breath of God) to enter into this people. This will be the final test as many would heretofor obey God, but this will be one command that many will not swallow. It will fly against a persons spiritual nature to command God to do anything- and just as Peter when God said "rise Peter slay and eat" many will say "Not so LORD!" Yet God has commended "Son of Man prophesy to the wind..." (Ezekiel 37:11, etc.).

It is impossible to refute this kind of assertion. Art believes it. This is a unique and eccentric exposition of the chapter; he is either right or wrong. Those who trust Art's eschatology may well decide that he is to be trusted, but they ought to remember that they are trusting a man and not the scripture.


Quote:
All the Jews who remain alive will be saved- the others will have been mercilessly slaughtered.

Lucky for some?


Quote:
Herein we see the crux of Art's eschatological theology- it is the necessity of the Church to be it's God appointed demonstration of the awe, wonder, and glory of the Supreme Sovereign God in such REALITY that philosophies and theories that deny Him His rightful place are impoverished and laid waste- and in that grandure of demonstration through their own personal deaths to all that they hold in their humaness and self- utterly crucified with Christ to the point themselves of dry bones- by the Holy Spirit- that in that dry death RESURRECTION power and glory will come forth and provoke Israel to jealousy and in turn Israel will be converted and return the favor.

Wow! this is a sentence worthy of the KJV translators. ;-) but it is all based on the imagined foundations of the earlier paragraphs. In my judgement, this is not exposition but the consequence of a mind 'preoccupied with the Jewish issue'. If this is Art's case, it is unproved and, to my mind, unconvincing.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/22 11:04Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
This is extra-biblical revelation not interpretation. There is not much difference between this kind of exposition and our old friend Jake. This is not 'exogesis', drawing from the text but 'eisogesis' inserting ideas into the text.



Hi Bro. Ron,

It seems that the temptation to read into prophesy is almost unbearable at times I suppose. Perhaps that is why we have suffered the "Late Great Planet Earth's" and "Left Behind's" and such these last hundred or so years. I have for some time seen this eisogesis of the eschatological passages of scripture almost to grief and mourning- knowing that how we interpret these things speaks more about us as individuals than anything else. Exegesis has long had an unseen variable that my studies of hermeneutics have never answered- it is the human element. The element that always wants to make scripture of a private interpretation. To which I once said that the ultimate litmus test of truth is whether or not God backs the words. The Pharisee's could prove a false doctrine from scripture- but yet, just as the false prophets of old and our day I see an element of God testing us to see whether we will be faithful to Him and trust Him in spite of all of our own preconceived ideas and bentness. Sin and compromise, to me, has the greatest exegetical impact on our hermeneutic. Our longing for truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is the most important factor to which the Holy Spirit can then lead us into all truth. If I be deceived let it not be said that I lent my ear to a lie of the devil for convenience sake or my own self-will. Because, when we are in compromise we listen to the wordsmithing of the enemy who can craft God's word like few men, if I dare say, any mere man.

Art says some provoking things. I am not his disciple, but I will weigh his words as any good Berean will. I think we both agree he seems to be a great man of God who is very earnest in his desire to know what is on God's heart. Yet, I will still prove all and hold fast to that which is good.

Honestly brother Ron, I desperately hope that Art is wrong about these things, especially of the destruction of Jews to the place of utter dryness. In my humanity I cannot swallow that. Yet I also see a subtle hint in all these things that sobers me beyond all else- and its the reality of the death to which he speaks that we the Church must come. He never said we, the Church will be martyed in the last days. I dare say I have ever heard any say it. Yet somehow it lirks in my memory and the chill of the real possibility from time to time surfaces and I am faced with choosing what I will believe. Jerry Feldman used to say something to the effect that the Jews has been through enough already and the Church is looking to be raptured out of any suffering to leave the Jews behind in the hands of the AntiChrist. I on the contrary have long SUSPECTED that it is a valley of death that we the Church and Israel will walk together. And in the fulness of these things Christ will return on His white horse and the armies of God following Him and He will tread the winepress of the fulness of the wrath of God Almighty which will be poured out undiluted. Wrath for how the nations have plundered and wasted His people.

So what shall we say to these things? Let us keep our hearts with all diligence for out of it are the issues of life. And what greater issue is before us than these things? Someday hindsight will be 20/20- but for now I have to prepare for whatever happens. Someday we will sit together and speak of how far we missed it all trying to see through the darkened glass of this life- yet we will rejoice I believe in the wonder and majesty of God EVEN IF we are all proven wrong in what ultimately happens. For it really matters not- but that God would be glorified.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/22 11:56Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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 Re:

I came across this URL recently and while I would not necessarily support any single view expressed here it might interest folks to get a wider perspective of Christian understandings of prophecy and the word 'Israel'.
Whose Holy Land?


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/28 7:57Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
Does anyone know what scriptures Art uses to substantiate his reasoning (excuse the word crsschk)?



ZekeO, you're excused :-P

This is all a bit heady for this simpleton at this moment in time so I will bow out with my namesake on the substance of the discussion.

But, want to interject that I have found the opposite to be true in regards to our dear brother Philologo's, brings to mind a quote from someone who's name eludes me at the moment...

"Let us practice that worthy Christian virtue to disagree agreeably"

Also, thanks for the insight on WKIP, didn't think they had radio stations with those call letters over there... ;-)


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Mike Balog

 2004/9/28 9:44Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Lars
I appreciate your desire for your quotations from Art to promote prayer. This is why I adopted the device of separating my comments into a separate thread. However whenever I hear public domain statements about the word of God which I feel are in error I have to decide what to do about it. Sometimes the best thing to do is nothing; that would have been Gamailiel's advice, but sometimes we have to raise our voice to protest and that is, alas, what I feel to be necessary again. The most obvious place for this objection would be side by side with the proclamation, but because I do not want to 'block' what you are posting I have decided to protest in a separate but accessible second thread.

It is the absolutism of Art's statements that must be challenged.

Art says

Quote:
Everything from chapters 1 through 8, however, is preparation for chapters 9 through 11

Now this is just not true and will distort the whole design of Romans. Romans is the closest we get in the Bible to a systematic theology. It builds slowly with meticulous precision. It is the closest thing we get in the Bible to a Swiss watch! To say that all this is preamble to Romans 9-11 is a peculiar form of theological astigmatism or perhaps tunnel vision. The theme of Romans is that there is no difference between Jew and Greek in terms of salvation; For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.(Rom 1:16 KJV) and every time I see Art saying differently on Sermonindex I am going to have to protest. He is laying a false foundation for interpretation of one the most important books in the canon.

Quote:
That cry has a very important application for today, especially with regard to the popular ‘two-covenant theory’ that is currently being promulgated, which teaches that either God is finished with Israel, and that we, as the Church, are the inheritors of their promises,

That is not two-covenant theory, it is one covenant-at-a-time theory. The Sinaitic Covenant whereby the gathered people became the people of God has passed away. It was always additional and always temporary; Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. (Gal 3:19 KJV)

There are not two covenants;
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. (Rom 10:12 KJV)
The old never became what it was intended to be; For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Heb 8:7 KJV)
and the second has 'replaced' the first;
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered?... ...are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. (Heb 10:1-9 KJV) I don't describe myself as a replacement theologian, but there is very clearly a 'replacement theology' which is referred to in this Hebrews passage.

Quote:
we are going to see that the Church is the explicit agent, chosen of God, to obtain the restoration of Israel to their God and to their Land in the Last Days

This, of course, is based on all Art's previous presumptions. This could only stand if there were a solid foundation to his theology on this issue. But if he thinks that the whole purpose of Romans is to provide a setting for Romans 9-11 his foundations are flawed.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/29 4:33Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Paul speaks in Christ as a man whose whole being is renewed and illumined, and a man who at the very time of writing is conscious of being under the direct operation of God’s Spirit. This is God’s own cry. It is not as a natural man, but as a spiritual man; it is not as a Jew, but as an Israelite indeed in whom there is no guile; it is as an inspired apostle that he speaks.
Katz, Israel and the Church 02 - posted 2004/9/30 8:37


Can anyone throw more light on to the way that Art distinguishes between 'Jews and Israelites'? Particularly in the light of his later comment In fact, if we do not live like that consistently before the advent of the Last Days’ trials of the Jews... Can one person be either or both? Can a non-Jew be an Israelite?

OK, I've got one...
Quote:
My kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites...(verses 3b-4a).
There is a difference between Israelites and Israel, because later we are going to read that not all Israel is Israel, though all are Israelites. One is a physical, generic and ethnic description, and the other is a spiritual statement. Not every Israelite is the ‘Israel of God,’ but every Israelite is an ethnic Jew making up the past and present nation of Israel. - Art Katz


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/30 4:51Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Likewise, the issue of the Jew is God’s provision for the transformation of the Church, and we will not obtain it independent of Israel. It is clear that there is a sanctification that works continually, but the depth of it is reserved for that final relationship with Israel and the Church’s own conscious, willful preparation and anticipation of that relationship.

Re: Katz, Israel and the Church 02 - posted 2004/10/1 6:19


Up until this point we have a clear exogesis and exposition of Romans 9. We have seen 'the love of God' shed abroad' in the heart of Paul the persecutor. He is 'wishing' that he might be 'cursed with excommunication' from God's own presence for the sake of 'my kinsmen according to the flesh'. This is one of the most glorious revelations of regeneration in the scripture. The people who regard him as their enemy are the object of his hearts outpouring. Young's Literal makes it even more amazing; for I was wishing, I myself, to be anathema from the Christ--for my brethren, my kindred, according to the flesh, Rom 9:3 YLT) This is the 'imperfect tense', the past-continuous. It was not the passion of a moment but the continual state of a man's heart. In this Paul becomes a living revelation of the love of God But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8 NASB) It is this love which Paul says is 'poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit'. This is thrilling New Covenant revelation; a man may be 'as Christ' in the Spirit.

But he then links this to his own eschatology. I think there is always a danger of interpreting the Bible in terms of our own view of eschatology. The Latter Rain (LR) and Kansas City Prophets(KCP) do just this. They have a future scenario in which an era dawns which is quite different to what we have known from Acts 2 to the present time. The LR and KCP have a view of a coming 'revival' initiated and led by a group of super-saints, whose ministry will be greater than Christ's. These super-apostles will operate in such clarity and precision of discernment and power that the heads of government will come to receive their counsel and the Kingdom of God will overspread the earth. Christ they say was only 'alpha man' the time is coming for 'omega man'. Their view of revival is linked inextricably with their eschatology.

I do not believe in 'guilt by association' but Art has more that a few points in common with LR and KCP. He too is looking for a new era of 'church', different to anything that has been from Acts 2 to the present time. For him too there must be a transformation of the church and this is linked inextricably with his eschatology. According to Art the church's full 'depth' of sanctification 'is reserved for that final relationship with Israel and the Church's own conscious, willful preparation and anticipation of that relationship'. Earlier in this critique we have seen that Art believes that this is the 'litmus test' for the true church.

The LR and KCP say that the greatest 'revival' ever can only come as a result of the 'resoration' of super-ministries. Art says that the greatest 'revival' can only come as a result of a revived Israel which itself is the result of the Church's 'conscious, willful preparation and anticipation of that relationship'. LR and KCP exclude all other escatologies than their own from their future revival, so does Art. In my opinion Art's theology is chained to his eschatology; I cannot accept either as being biblically based.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/10/1 4:32Profile





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