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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : The Mystery of Israel and the Church: Art Katz - a critique

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I think the main difficulty I have with Art is that he is moving from the margins to the core. He is 'fascinated and preoccupied' (his description of Paul) with the Jewish Issue. This is dangerous because it establishes fixed points on the margins which can seriously affect the core truths. All teaching is based on moving from the known to the unknown. The real 'fascination and preoccupation' of Paul is not on the Jewish Issue but on the faith that justifies the ungodly, uncircumcised, un-Jewish, and the same faith that justifies the circumcised and Jewish. His faith paradym is Abraham, un-circumcises and un-Jewish. This core truth has to be held through the rest of our interpretation of Romans. To make Romans 9-11 the means of understanding the purposes of God in the core of Romans is to get the tail wagging the dog.



I think what Art is saying is not intended to effect the essential doctrines (sola feday, etc.) that cannot be compromised; but rather, he is pointing out that God's plan to redeem all of mankind is a marvelous mystery that as you begin to zoom out and look at the big picture becomes quite marvelous indeed in our eyes. When it is all said and done we will exclaim, "Who hath known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counsellor?" Redemption is a demonstration of the manifold wisdom of God to bring about His purpose in light of what no doubt was a staggered problem in the minds of the angels as they desired to look into it.

The purpose of God and His redemptive masterpiece is too large for us to behold because we are too close to it in our thinking. Like looking at a giant mural at point blank range. You have to zoom out and appreciate the wonder. I have been quilty of slpitting hairs in all the theological areas practically. but the epistimological reality was that I was too close to the canvas to see what I have been trying to decipher. Now, you can't paint by standing back and looking all the time, but every once and a while its good to hear a guy like Art remind us that God's ultimate plan to redeem man is larger than the evangelistic efforts on the street level- but is in reality only a small part of a huge tapestry that each of these Spirit led efforts make up as a whole.

Yesterday he spoke from Ezekiel 37 and Psalm 102.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/21 11:49Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:

The purpose of God and His redemptive masterpiece is too large for us to behold because we are too close to it in our thinking.


I'm sure you are right, but don't believe that Art has a wide-angle focus that is denied to the rest of us.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/21 13:05Profile









 Re:



Mr. Bailey,
Not many are able to follow your thoughts and understand what you say. You seem to enjoy confrontation. It is not a good testimony.
Mr Katz, on the other hand, speaks with wisdom from the heart to hearts and minds. That is the spiritual way which produces life.
I suppose his words rebuke you.
He is a well educated man with prophetic manners which is not recognized and welcomed in all places.
Hanna

 2004/9/21 13:10
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I'm sure you are right, but don't believe that Art has a wide-angle focus that is denied to the rest of us.



Amen! And that is how I was challenged yesterday. I felt like I had to just step back and let my eyes focus again and then step back to the details so I keep everything in perspective. When I do that I can see the big picture a little better, but then its right back to the details again.

I was sitting there wondering if any of the folks that I attended the Jewish Roots Institute was there, but I didn't see any (there was a lot of people though and I may have missed them). I wondered what other Messianic's take on all this is? He makes some bold statements about the Holocaust in his book and in these messages that I'm sure would go over like a lead balloon in most places. Yet, I have enjoyed both perspectives of the Zionists and also his (and others). I just pray that God will help me put it all together in a practical way that can make a difference along this life I'm living and most of all understand that it's all about God and not me. That is a death thats hard to die.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/21 13:58Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
To believe that the Church has the responsibility to save nations, per se, is naive and conceited. The Church’s mission task is no more than to “save from among the Gentiles a people for His name” (Acts 15:14). The evangelization of the nations, per se, will become Israel’s task when she becomes the first nation saved and restored to a relationship with God.

What does this mean? that the whole of the nation state of Israel will be converted? and then converted Israel will convert all the nations? It doesn't make sense. Even in the great Jewish revival that took place in the early Acts it was never indicated that the whole of the nation would be converted. Where does this leave the great commission of Matthew; And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Mat 28:18-20 KJV) Was this commission to the church or to a converted Israel? According to Art's scenario we have had 2000 years treading water with a task that was always going to be 'no more than to save from among the Gentiles a people for His name'. 'the evangelization of the nations will become Israel's task'!! I keep on reading and re-reading these sentences trying to interpret them in some other way. Is he really saying what he seems to be saying? The missionary endeavour of the Church of Jesus Christ is no more than the intro to Israel's evangelization crescendo? I just don't believe it.


Quote:
God is letting this one issue be the eternal factor. Everything comes to a head in a point of time, exposing who, in fact, we are, and where we are in God, as revealed in our response, of all things, to world Jewry in that moment of historical extremity.

I had hoped when I saw this in previous articles by Art that it was a moment's aberation. Perhaps something said in the heat of the preaching that on reflection he would have wanted to modify, but here it is again. It is a long sentence but it reduces easily to its main points... "the eternal factor..." is our attitude to National Israel. 'who we are, and what we are, and where we are in God, will be revealed by our response to National Israel. This is extra-biblical revelation. There is nothing in the Book to substantiate this claim.

I don't doubt Art's sincerity, honesty or godliness. I have met him and I think I know his character. He is a wysiwyg character. I am tempted to quote the words to Nathaniel; an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile. But as an exposition of the scripture these assertions have no foundation. This is the most extreme interpretation of Messianic Zionism that I have ever seen in writing. We have a responsibility to search the scriptures to see whether these things are so, and I urge readers to do that, subjecting every one of Art's expositional claims to the scrutiny of the revealed word of God.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/21 17:27Profile
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Joined: 2004/2/8
Posts: 199
Worthing UK

 Re:

It has been said many times before that this is a "Forum" a maketplace for open honest christian opinions.I'm so glad this topic can be discussed.Ron said:

Quote:
We have a responsibility to search the scriptures to see whether these things are so, and I urge readers to do that, subjecting every one of Art's expositional claims to the scrutiny of the revealed word of God.



I must agree with him,I find his posts thoughtful critical and wholesome.As we all have said in the past...the written word can be misunderstood
lets not be to hasty with our rebukes :-)


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derek Eyre

 2004/9/21 20:15Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2737
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
...I find his posts thoughtful critical and wholesome...



Yes, thank you Ron, and Robert also, for your thoughts on this matter. This article concerning Israel and the Church could definately be classified as new revelation. I guess it's a matter of determining if this revelation then steps on established doctrine, obviously Ron feels it does, I guess I'm still undecided at this point but I appreciate his input.

It is good to see we can have some open and honest discussion on such a wide range of topics including subjects that can be controversial such as this thread.

As Ron has said, it is good to remember that we know in part, especially when it comes to prophetic topics concerning unfulfilled end times matters.

The word of God has not been given to simply satisfy our curiosity about the future, clearly some things are revealed and some things remain hidden.

[i]The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.[/i]
(Deuteronomy 29:29)

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2004/9/21 22:02Profile
Nasher
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Not many are able to follow your thoughts and understand what you say.



Ron, I have always thought you explain sometimes difficult things into simple ways to understand.

Looking forward to Sunday. :-D


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Mark Nash

 2004/9/22 2:25Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Yes, thank you Ron, and Robert also, for your thoughts on this matter. This article concerning Israel and the Church could definately be classified as new revelation. I guess it's a matter of determining if this revelation then steps on established doctrine, obviously Ron feels it does, I guess I'm still undecided at this point but I appreciate his input.


Hi Ron
Thanks for your comments. You have identified my main purpose in my postings on this topic. I am not putting forward my own view but am challenging 'new revelation'. It would not be logical for me to say 'it is not true' and I have never said it. What I am saying is 'it is not biblical' and I wanted others to understand that what Art is saying is not exposition of scripture but the conviction of his own heart that he has seen the big picture.

The jury is still out on whether or not he is accurate in his predictions. My own judgement is that he is mistaken, others must make their own judgements. I only ask that we don't adopt the stance of 'I have made my mind up, please don't confuse me with evidence'.

Please don't trouble to try to defend me. I am not offended by what some have said. I always take such comments to the Lord to ask what I can learn from them, but I know that my contributions have been directed towards 'ideas' rather than men. If I did not have such high personal esteem for Art as a man of integrity I would not challenge his ideas nearly so strongly. I am always happy for people to challenge my ideas, and I encourage the challenges to be as thorough as possible; I have nothing to lose but my ignorence. However, it is best to leave character assessments tending towards adoration or assassination out of these forums.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/22 4:19Profile
Delboy
Member



Joined: 2004/2/8
Posts: 199
Worthing UK

 Re:

Dear all i must echo in the light's comment

Quote:
Yes, thank you Ron, and Robert also


I must say that i was not trying to defend philo at all,he certainly does'nt need that from me :-) .In my post i did not make mention of Robert,I'm sorry for that.
brothers lets press on,thanks for all your thoughts and insights ;-)


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derek Eyre

 2004/9/22 4:44Profile





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