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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is there a such thing as Calvinistic Pentecostals?

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TimmyJoe
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Joined: 2007/6/19
Posts: 120
Panama City, FL

 Is there a such thing as Calvinistic Pentecostals?

I have grown up in a Pentecostal church all my life, and for the past four years I have almost driven myself to insanity trying to figure out what I believe. I believe in the operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but I also believe in the doctrine of Sovereign Grace. The problem is that I don't know of any church or preacher that believe's in both. Maybe Paul Washer, or John Piper (I don't know for sure), but does anyone know of any?

 2009/10/7 12:01Profile
IWantAnguish
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Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343
VCU @ Richmond, VA

 Re: Is there a such thing as Calvinistic Pentecostals?

I remember hearing Paul Washer speak of his younger years when the Spirit of God would fall on congregations when he preached...

He also said he almost died spiritually trying to live off the memories of past experiences rather than going to God for present revelations of Himself.


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Sam Yoon

 2009/10/7 12:12Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: Is there a such thing as Calvinistic Pentecostals?

A lot of what those who would identify themselves as "charismatic" usually have a reformed background of some sort. Of course, this is not always the case. But, such individuals as Art Katz were reformed in their theology in regards to salvation, but Pentecostal in view of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts.


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Jimmy H

 2009/10/7 12:18Profile
TaylorOtwell
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Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Yes, there is such a thing.

C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries would be the most prominent example.

I actually visited the congregation in Crestview, FL a few years ago.

www.sovgracemin.org


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Taylor Otwell

 2009/10/7 13:01Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4502


 Re: Is there a such thing as Calvinistic Pentecostals?

Hi Timmy,

I think that an answer might be difficult to find simply because there are varying definitions for the words "Calvinist" and "Pentecostal."

I don't know many "calvinists" who embrace EVERY last tenant of Calvinism. In addition, I know some believers who reject the gifts of the Spirit who still consider themselves to be "Pentecostal." Even the extent in view regarding the "doctrine of Sovereign Grace" tends to vary from person-to-person and fellowship-to-fellowship. Do you see the difficulty with answering a question like the one found in the title of this thread?

That said: I do know some people who consider themselves "classical Pentecostals" who embrace at least some elements of Calvinist ideology. In fact, I attended a men's Bible study breakfast with a couple of Calvary Chapel congregations on Saturday. The speaker seemed to embrace some aspects of Calvinist thought. However, I have attended some Calvary Chapel congregations that held to the opposite view on the matter.

I agree with King Jimmy in that most "classical Pentecostal" fellowships tend to reject most of the tenants of Calvinism. As far as Paul Washer and John Piper are concerned, you might shoot them an email and ask about the extent of their views in regard to both Calvinism and Pentecostalism.


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Christopher

 2009/10/7 13:57Profile
TaylorOtwell
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Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

[b]I received a private message asking for more information on Sovereign Grace Ministries. I thought my response may be helpful to all, so here you go:[/b]

Thanks for the message.

Honestly, I didn't know they were charismatic at the time. I just liked C.J. Mahaney and knew that he was one of the leaders of that fellowship of churches. But, I've since learned more about them.

They have a traditional, historic understanding of the Five Points of Calvinism.

They have a much more physically expressive worship than you would typically find in a Reformed Presbyterian/Baptist church.

They believe in the continuing role of the gifts of the Spirit. Here is an excerpt from their statement of faith: "All the gifts of the Holy Spirit at work in the church of the first-century are available today, are vital for the mission of the church, and are to be earnestly desired and practiced."

That being said, they do believe that the gift of the Holy Spirit is received at the time of conversion.

They are Baptist in terms of the application of actual Baptism - they do not baptize infants.

I hope this helps you get a better feel for what they are like.

From my experience, they will be very sound on the gospel, loving, and very serious students of the Scripture.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2009/10/7 14:06Profile









 Re:

I am glad that your rethinking what you believe, Tim. Nothing any worse than not knowing what you believe, and know it in your heart. Would to God we'd all do the same and take inventory of what we believe.

Good for you, and God Bless in your search.

 2009/10/7 14:57
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Piper's sermons on the gifts of the Spirit definitely seem to show his church to be charismatic reformed. Also, the guys who run the Reformation Theology website have written articles to the effect that they too are charismatic reformed. Sovereign Grace Ministries is definitely that. Me too.

 2009/10/7 15:16Profile









 Re: Is there a such thing as Calvinistic Pentecostals?

Classical Pentecostalism is predominantly Arminian due to Wesleyan and other holiness roots. You could also add Finney to that equation.

However in modern practice more Pentecostals are becoming more open to OSAS type views. This view is rife within Charismatic Protestant circles.

I think souls driven to despair search for grace in places like the OSAS view because the puzzle doesn't fit for them.

My view of OSAS: material heresy

 2009/10/7 21:21
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

However in modern practice more Pentecostals are becoming more open to OSAS type views. This view is rife within Charismatic Protestant circles.



A lot of this is probably due to the charismatic renewal movement of the 1960's causing a theological blur of sorts. Pentecostals, as you say, were historically Wesleyean/Arminian, and their experience of the baptism of the Holy Spirit pretty much kept them isolated in their own little respective camps. But when people with other theological persuasions began to experience the baptism of the Holy Spirit, this sort of opened classical Pentecostals to other theologies, and vice versa.

At my own church, though we have many people who have been Pentecostal most of their adult Christian lives, we've seen a lot of individuals coming from other theological persuasions. Indeed, I would say we have almost as many people in our church with a S. Baptist view of salvation as people who hold to an Arminian view. Thankfully, we all get along and there hasn't been a rift in the church. The love of God shed abroad in our hearts has kept us from biting and devouring one another :-)


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Jimmy H

 2009/10/7 22:06Profile





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