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trueblue
Member



Joined: 2009/9/1
Posts: 62


 Re:

Quote:

BlazedbyGod wrote:
Quote:

trueblue wrote:

[b]1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world[/b].

According to one Greek scholar(Spiros Zodhiates) the World or Kosmos refers to the sum total of person living in the world.Can someone please also give me specific references to scripture that supports the idea that Christ died for a race and not all individuals within a race.So theoretically a race of one million may only have one who's elected to salvation.

Let me also suggest that we use not assumption or monkey tricks in order to prove our theory's, but Gods word alone.



Trublue, my brother-whom I love-though I know you not-yet I belive the Lord knows thee-so we with passion and fervernt love of the Spirit are one.

1 John 2:2 does in fact say that Christ is the propitation of the sins of the whole world-but let us never forget what the Spirit expreseth through Paul:

Rom 3:23 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation [b]through FAITH IN HIS BLOOD[/b], to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Propitiation is made only on the behalf of those WHO have faith in his Blood. Those whom have not faith in his Blood-indeed have no propitiation.




My dear brother that is not the way i read the above scripture..i see no mention of the propitiation of the elect only.I see the glorious gospel of Christ and how one must put his faith in the blood of the cross.

As spurgeon said "if by Christ dying for the whole world (unlimited atonement) we are to undersatnd that every every memeberof the human race will ultimately be saved ,of course we reject that suggestion;that is universalism,wholly repudiated by orthodox bible believers.But if by atonement for all we mean that Christs death is potentially adequate for evry man,that appears to be the teaching of scripture".spurgeons autobiography

Hbr 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:


2Cr 5:15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

 2009/10/8 13:55Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Trueblue said: "Brother i think maybe you misunderstand me..Im not refering to the many in the later part of Rom 5:19.I am refering to the first part of the scripture "For by ones mans disobedience MANY were made sinners..now this word does not mean all or some etc..it means everyone"

Brother, I believe that is the problem-the word many in this verse (in neither of it's menioning does it mean "EVERYONE or ALL"- it means "MANY"

The Greek word is: Polus: many, much, large
King James Word Usage - Total: 365
many 210, much 73, great 59, miscellaneous 23

[url=http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4183&version=kjv]"MANY" in Rom 5:19 [/url]

 2009/10/8 14:57Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Quote:

BlazedbyGod wrote:
Trueblue said: "Brother i think maybe you misunderstand me..Im not refering to the many in the later part of Rom 5:19.I am refering to the first part of the scripture "For by ones mans disobedience MANY were made sinners..now this word does not mean all or some etc..it means everyone"

Brother, I believe that is the problem-the word many in this verse (in neither of it's menioning does it mean "EVERYONE or ALL"- it means "MANY"

The Greek word is: Polus: many, much, large
King James Word Usage - Total: 365
many 210, much 73, great 59, miscellaneous 23

[url=http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4183&version=kjv]"MANY" in Rom 5:19 [/url]


It is never wise to read only one verse of Scripture and attempt to derive a world of meaning from that one verse. The Bible is one unit, to be taken as a whole, thus the true meaning for most verses can only be correctly understood in its proper context.

Romans 5:19 is related to earlier verses that are clearer in scope:

[i]Ro 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned[/i]

 2009/10/8 15:23Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

trueblue wrote:
Quote:

BlazedbyGod wrote:
Quote:

trueblue wrote:

[b]1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world[/b].

According to one Greek scholar(Spiros Zodhiates) the World or Kosmos refers to the sum total of person living in the world.Can someone please also give me specific references to scripture that supports the idea that Christ died for a race and not all individuals within a race.So theoretically a race of one million may only have one who's elected to salvation.

Let me also suggest that we use not assumption or monkey tricks in order to prove our theory's, but Gods word alone.



Trublue, my brother-whom I love-though I know you not-yet I belive the Lord knows thee-so we with passion and fervernt love of the Spirit are one.

1 John 2:2 does in fact say that Christ is the propitation of the sins of the whole world-but let us never forget what the Spirit expreseth through Paul:

Rom 3:23 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation [b]through FAITH IN HIS BLOOD[/b], to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Propitiation is made only on the behalf of those WHO have faith in his Blood. Those whom have not faith in his Blood-indeed have no propitiation.




My dear brother that is not the way i read the above scripture..i see no mention of the propitiation of the elect only.I see the glorious gospel of Christ and how one must put his faith in the blood of the cross.

As spurgeon said "if by Christ dying for the whole world (unlimited atonement) we are to undersatnd that every every memeberof the human race will ultimately be saved ,of course we reject that suggestion;that is universalism,wholly repudiated by orthodox bible believers.But if by atonement for all we mean that Christs death is potentially adequate for evry man,that appears to be the teaching of scripture".spurgeons autobiography

Hbr 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:


2Cr 5:15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.




And as A.W. Pink said, and I believe, by the guidence of the Holy Spirit, in the Blessed: The Sovereignty of God:

"Ere closing this section of the chapter we shall consider briefly a few of those passages which seem to teach most strongly an unlimited design in the death of Christ. In 2 Corinthians 5:14 we read, "One died for all." But that is not all this Scripture affirms. If the entire verse and passage from which these words are quoted be carefully examined, it will be found that instead of teaching an unlimited atonement, it emphatically argues a limited design in the death of Christ. The whole verse reads, "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if One died for all, then were all dead." It should be pointed out that in the Greek there is the definite article before the last "all," and that the verb here is in the aorist tense, and therefore should read, "We thus judge: that if One died for all, then the all died." The Apostle is here drawing a conclusion as is clear from the words "we thus judge, that if... then were." His meaning is, that those for whom the One died are regarded, judicially, as having died too. The next verse goes on to say, "And He died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them, and rose again." The One not only died but "rose again," and so, too, did the "all" for whom He died, for it is here said they "live." Those for whom a substitute acts are legally regarded as having acted themselves. In the sight of the law the substitute and those whom he represents are one. So it is in the sight of God. Christ was identified with His people and His people were identified with Him, hence when He died they died (judicially) and when He rose they rose also. But further we are told in this passage (v. 17), that if any man be in Christ he is a new creation; he has received a new life in fact as well as in the sight of the law, hence the "all" for whom Christ died are here bidden to live henceforth no more unto themselves, "but unto Him which died for them, and rose again." In other words, those who belonged to this "all" for whom Christ died, are here exhorted to manifest practically in their daily lives what is true of them judicially: they are to "live unto Christ who died for them." Thus the "One died for all" is defined for us. The "all" for which Christ died are they which "live," and which are here bidden to live "unto Him." This passage then teaches three important truths, and the better to show its scope we mention them in their inverse order: certain ones are here bidden to live no more unto themselves but unto Christ; the ones thus admonished are "they which live," that is live spiritually, hence, the children of God, for they alone of mankind possess spiritual life, all others being dead in trespasses and sins; those who do thus live are the ones, the "all," the "them," for whom Christ died and rose again. This passage therefore teaches that Christ died for all His people, the elect, those given to Him by the Father; that as the result of His death (and rising again "for them") they "live"-and the elect are the only ones who do thus "live"; and this life which is theirs through Christ must be lived "unto Him," Christ's love must now "constrain" them."

 2009/10/16 17:17Profile
bible4life
Member



Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1559
Locport, Illinois

 Re:

Brothers and sisters i know this is a great discussion but do you real8ly think y5ou our going to change anyones minds on here on these subjects. We know scripture warns us from falling away and at the same times says their false professors who really don't know the Lord and also it says we our born of an incorrupitible seed, sealed by the holy spirit, etc. We should heed it all but make sure you stay in faith in Christ which i am assured God will do so, but who really knows.


_________________
John Beechy

 2009/10/22 3:34Profile





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