hmmhmm wrote:

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trueblue wrote:


So basically in this duet are you are stating that my cooperation(after conversion)is paramount to my salvation..in other words my own effort or works in the duet is necessary??..is this a faith and works duet i must ask..much love in the saviour!!

john 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled".

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first id like to say many of these discussions become very fruitless due to the fact almost every one of them drift into "what if" and so on, so we have theoretical discussion. And both sides have their "but what if" and by those buts find faults or "holes" in the other side.

I think it is laid out such in scripture God have made it such that in HIS sovereign way he chose that man could chose freely. The main issue for me is love, love is voluntary, i said many times that those dolls i can buy at a toystore for my little girls, some have a string or a button to push, when pushed the doll says "I love you". That is not true love, yet it seems this is many believers view on how their love for God is, i am not saying we are saved by works, by faith lest any man should boast, we are kept by faith, we overcome by faith. Everything is by faith.

Yes i know many scripture give great assurance, and the verses that say No one can pluck us out of Gods hand i believe in them, not even satan can or any thing or man or demon. I believe that, but i believe if any man want to bad enough not to be any longer in Gods hand, due to love of self, the world or sin, and chose freely to "jump" out of Gods hand i do not think God will stop them. I know many do not share my view on this and it is ok, this is my own beliefs, and yet i am not afraid i will fall away, nor that i will not overcome, nor that if i sin once God will cast me away. I do not live in fear, i have found i have greater assurance then most believers i have meet. I think it comes down to that very heart issue, love, we see Adam in the garden had a choice, he did not have the sin curse that we have, yet he chose wrong, I believe we to have a choice. But many make the mistake, if i can call it that to make a decision into a work based salvation. I dont see it that way,I just see that God is calling out to his people, his church to be radical and sold out to him, the book of revelation has a bunch of "scary" scriptures that ought to make us all make our salvation and election sure.

Also i think the hundreds of verses that say "if" , "when" , "stand fast" , "take heed" , are there for a reason. Just as the assurance verses are there for a reason, i do know the reason is not to debate them forth and back, but rather to believe them and obey, and encourage our brethren daily, building ourselves up in the most holy faith. And to say to a believer "you can never fall away" no matter how much you sin, fall, reject Gods will, refuse to obey him, live for your self and love money etc, it does not matter God has saved you and he will see you in heaven. I dont see that in scripture, and i know many who hold the other view from me will say "such people are maybe never born again to start with?" , probably true in many cases, but in other i think not. and those who may lean towards the other side may go into extreme teachings and say "oh if you sin one time you will go to hell" i would shake such talk of like dust to, the thing is scripture is balanced, and mentions both assurance and also great insecurity for all who does not live and walk as they should in their inner being. That is also scripture. The problem is when we feed to much our knowledge in our flesh, we want so desperately to know how it works out, we can not even grasp how great Gods created universe is, then how can we grasp the act of redeeming this creation and how that works out? in every detail, sure we understand stars, moons and orbits and many more things, but so much we can not understand, and with God and man there is a whole lot we can understand, some things we can not, and some are harder to understand and so on.

what my point is, is this :-) you dont have to have my view on this, but just see to it that we love God and man, and if we seek him in truth and humility he may reveal it to us when we are mature enough to handle it.

anyway, i just think many of those who hold eternal security misunderstand me many a times.


God bless

JoanM wrote:
Brothers, Brothers

Maybe it would help if people listened to the video a bit more carefully. This man has a heart for those that are deceived "church-people" who have not heard the gospel because it is not preached. A deceived person can notice that things are not quite right when they hear the Truth.

I could agree that some have a question about "loosing" salvation that has been gained. It is good to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.

Do no "church-people" visit this site?

You know, if I were your adversary and could not stop the Truth of God being preached or posted on this site, I would encourage side-tracking and a distortion of the message.

Do no "church-people" visit this site.

Suppose for an example, that "once saved always saved" is true. Shall we give assurance to those who have NOT heard the Gospel, that have NOT believed/received new life, that hear this video. [u]Shall we give assurance, through scripture, of a lie that has been believed[/u]? [u]Shall we seek such an assurance for ourselves[/u]?

From the first time I heard it, I have not forgotten the devise our enemy used in his second wave of attack on Jesus: Matthew 4: 6.

[b]Matthew 7: 21, 22, and Matthew 7:23 speak of something that will really occur.[/b] I have witnessed the preaching of this Word of God yield fruit.

Thank you for pointing out this video, trueblue. I have marked it as another way that a needed truth has been presented clearly.

hmmhmm wrote:
i would like to ask a question to those who hold eternal security, no matter what. How do you deal with all those passages that are to many to list here? take heed, beware, hold fast, make your election and calling sure, all the ifs all the when and so on.

Do they not apply to Christians even tho they are written to us? and if they do apply to us.... why are they in scripture when no matter if i do take heed, if i dont hold fast, if i do not overcome etc, if scripture say if you do this and i dont do that. Why would God put so much in scripture when they can do nothing? since my obeidience or diligence to such scripture have no effect eternally? since i am eternally secure, why would i bother to "hold fast" when holding fast will not change anything or do any thing ? or why should i take heed for false prophets ? because even if they deceive me i am still eternally secure? how do you handle all those passages?

it is just my way of thinking and i would be thankful for your thoughts, that hold another view then mine, i just think God placed them there for a reason , that i should actually do all those things because they can effect my eternity if i do not.

anyway, thankyou for your gracious replies and patience with me.

If someone claiming the name of Christ falls away, they will not be saved. They are not and never were Christ's sheep.

hmmhmm wrote:




Probably, and i am convinced this is true about many professors, but i am also convinced this is not so for all, i am convinced some are true christians but after abandoning the faith and the Lord that bought them, they will perish in the end.

I think this verse from one of Peters epistles show us even such men that are false apostles, can at one point have been true believers, such that teach damnable heresies where once his. He bought them, and i do not seem to understand how you can be bought by God through Christ blood and not be saved?

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even [b]denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. [/b]


But again, i am not saying or believing this is the faith of all who fall, or fail at some point in their walk, but i think there is somewhere a line, when we cross that line, departing from the living God, despising his work and gift to us, that we will perish, even if we did know him in truth. I know this is hard for many of my reformed brethren to believe :-) but i think it is worth considering even if we are persuaded differently.

Gods grace and peace to all

He bought them, and i do not seem to understand how you can be bought by God through Christ blood and not be saved?