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hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

i would like to ask a question to those who hold eternal security, no matter what. How do you deal with all those passages that are to many to list here? take heed, beware, hold fast, make your election and calling sure, all the ifs all the when and so on.

Do they not apply to Christians even tho they are written to us? and if they do apply to us.... why are they in scripture when no matter if i do take heed, if i dont hold fast, if i do not overcome etc, if scripture say if you do this and i dont do that. Why would God put so much in scripture when they can do nothing? since my obeidience or diligence to such scripture have no effect eternally? since i am eternally secure, why would i bother to "hold fast" when holding fast will not change anything or do any thing ? or why should i take heed for false prophets ? because even if they deceive me i am still eternally secure? how do you handle all those passages?

it is just my way of thinking and i would be thankful for your thoughts, that hold another view then mine, i just think God placed them there for a reason , that i should actually do all those things because they can effect my eternity if i do not.

anyway, thankyou for your gracious replies and patience with me.


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2009/10/6 12:44Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, to continue my first statements; what happens if one stops believing in Christ? he is on dangerous ground and i fear for such...he then is no longer the president.jimp

 2009/10/6 12:45Profile
Mangan
Member



Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re:

My take on this is:
It is by Grace we are entering into a saving covenant with God through faith in Jesus.. Before this our will is in bondage unable to move towards God. After entering into the faith covenant our will is free to enact in a loving relationship with the triune God. Because of the freedom of our will we can if we are being neglective -- loose our salvation by quenching the Spirit (1Th 5:19 ESV) who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory. (Eph 1:14 NIV)

Sincerely Magnus


_________________
Magnus Nordlund

 2009/10/6 12:47Profile
JoanM
Member



Joined: 2008/4/7
Posts: 797


 Re: Question on the fire video ??

Brothers, Brothers

Maybe it would help if people listened to the video a bit more carefully. This man has a heart for those that are deceived "church-people" who have not heard the gospel because it is not preached. A deceived person can notice that things are not quite right when they hear the Truth.

I could agree that some have a question about "loosing" salvation that has been gained. It is good to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.

Do no "church-people" visit this site?

You know, if I were your adversary and could not stop the Truth of God being preached or posted on this site, I would encourage side-tracking and a distortion of the message.

Do no "church-people" visit this site.

Suppose for an example, that "once saved always saved" is true. Shall we give assurance to those who have NOT heard the Gospel, that have NOT believed/received new life, that hear this video. [u]Shall we give assurance, through scripture, of a lie that has been believed[/u]? [u]Shall we seek such an assurance for ourselves[/u]?

From the first time I heard it, I have not forgotten the devise our enemy used in his second wave of attack on Jesus: Matthew 4: 6.

[b]Matthew 7: 21, 22, and Matthew 7:23 speak of something that will really occur.[/b] I have witnessed the preaching of this Word of God yield fruit.

Thank you for pointing out this video, trueblue. I have marked it as another way that a needed truth has been presented clearly.

 2009/10/6 13:35Profile
trueblue
Member



Joined: 2009/9/1
Posts: 62


 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
Quote:

trueblue wrote:


So basically in this duet are you are stating that my cooperation(after conversion)is paramount to my salvation..in other words my own effort or works in the duet is necessary??..is this a faith and works duet i must ask..much love in the saviour!!

john 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled".





first id like to say many of these discussions become very fruitless due to the fact almost every one of them drift into "what if" and so on, so we have theoretical discussion. And both sides have their "but what if" and by those buts find faults or "holes" in the other side.

I think it is laid out such in scripture God have made it such that in HIS sovereign way he chose that man could chose freely. The main issue for me is love, love is voluntary, i said many times that those dolls i can buy at a toystore for my little girls, some have a string or a button to push, when pushed the doll says "I love you". That is not true love, yet it seems this is many believers view on how their love for God is, i am not saying we are saved by works, by faith lest any man should boast, we are kept by faith, we overcome by faith. Everything is by faith.

Yes i know many scripture give great assurance, and the verses that say No one can pluck us out of Gods hand i believe in them, not even satan can or any thing or man or demon. I believe that, but i believe if any man want to bad enough not to be any longer in Gods hand, due to love of self, the world or sin, and chose freely to "jump" out of Gods hand i do not think God will stop them. I know many do not share my view on this and it is ok, this is my own beliefs, and yet i am not afraid i will fall away, nor that i will not overcome, nor that if i sin once God will cast me away. I do not live in fear, i have found i have greater assurance then most believers i have meet. I think it comes down to that very heart issue, love, we see Adam in the garden had a choice, he did not have the sin curse that we have, yet he chose wrong, I believe we to have a choice. But many make the mistake, if i can call it that to make a decision into a work based salvation. I dont see it that way,I just see that God is calling out to his people, his church to be radical and sold out to him, the book of revelation has a bunch of "scary" scriptures that ought to make us all make our salvation and election sure.

Also i think the hundreds of verses that say "if" , "when" , "stand fast" , "take heed" , are there for a reason. Just as the assurance verses are there for a reason, i do know the reason is not to debate them forth and back, but rather to believe them and obey, and encourage our brethren daily, building ourselves up in the most holy faith. And to say to a believer "you can never fall away" no matter how much you sin, fall, reject Gods will, refuse to obey him, live for your self and love money etc, it does not matter God has saved you and he will see you in heaven. I dont see that in scripture, and i know many who hold the other view from me will say "such people are maybe never born again to start with?" , probably true in many cases, but in other i think not. and those who may lean towards the other side may go into extreme teachings and say "oh if you sin one time you will go to hell" i would shake such talk of like dust to, the thing is scripture is balanced, and mentions both assurance and also great insecurity for all who does not live and walk as they should in their inner being. That is also scripture. The problem is when we feed to much our knowledge in our flesh, we want so desperately to know how it works out, we can not even grasp how great Gods created universe is, then how can we grasp the act of redeeming this creation and how that works out? in every detail, sure we understand stars, moons and orbits and many more things, but so much we can not understand, and with God and man there is a whole lot we can understand, some things we can not, and some are harder to understand and so on.

what my point is, is this :-) you dont have to have my view on this, but just see to it that we love God and man, and if we seek him in truth and humility he may reveal it to us when we are mature enough to handle it.

anyway, i just think many of those who hold eternal security misunderstand me many a times.


God bless


ok :-) ...To say that we are in the hand of God and that no one or nothing can pluck us out of Gods hand, then to suggest we can walk out of Gods hand is a grave contradiction.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I think we are going to be flogging a dead horse here by being drawn into that age old argument of saved and lost..very fruitless indeed as you will agree...anyways the Lord bless you and keep you and cause His face to shine upon you??

 2009/10/6 14:05Profile
trueblue
Member



Joined: 2009/9/1
Posts: 62


 Re:

Quote:

JoanM wrote:
Brothers, Brothers

Maybe it would help if people listened to the video a bit more carefully. This man has a heart for those that are deceived "church-people" who have not heard the gospel because it is not preached. A deceived person can notice that things are not quite right when they hear the Truth.

I could agree that some have a question about "loosing" salvation that has been gained. It is good to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.

Do no "church-people" visit this site?

You know, if I were your adversary and could not stop the Truth of God being preached or posted on this site, I would encourage side-tracking and a distortion of the message.

Do no "church-people" visit this site.

Suppose for an example, that "once saved always saved" is true. Shall we give assurance to those who have NOT heard the Gospel, that have NOT believed/received new life, that hear this video. [u]Shall we give assurance, through scripture, of a lie that has been believed[/u]? [u]Shall we seek such an assurance for ourselves[/u]?

From the first time I heard it, I have not forgotten the devise our enemy used in his second wave of attack on Jesus: Matthew 4: 6.

[b]Matthew 7: 21, 22, and Matthew 7:23 speak of something that will really occur.[/b] I have witnessed the preaching of this Word of God yield fruit.

Thank you for pointing out this video, trueblue. I have marked it as another way that a needed truth has been presented clearly.



Let me categorically say that i have no issue with the reproving of a limp and hollow preaching.I do have issue with someone stating that Christians go to hell.As i quoted earlier in this thread from Gods word in Rom 8:30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified".Either Christians are glorified future tense or they are not...blessings!! :-)

 2009/10/6 14:15Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
i would like to ask a question to those who hold eternal security, no matter what. How do you deal with all those passages that are to many to list here? take heed, beware, hold fast, make your election and calling sure, all the ifs all the when and so on.

Do they not apply to Christians even tho they are written to us? and if they do apply to us.... why are they in scripture when no matter if i do take heed, if i dont hold fast, if i do not overcome etc, if scripture say if you do this and i dont do that. Why would God put so much in scripture when they can do nothing? since my obeidience or diligence to such scripture have no effect eternally? since i am eternally secure, why would i bother to "hold fast" when holding fast will not change anything or do any thing ? or why should i take heed for false prophets ? because even if they deceive me i am still eternally secure? how do you handle all those passages?

it is just my way of thinking and i would be thankful for your thoughts, that hold another view then mine, i just think God placed them there for a reason , that i should actually do all those things because they can effect my eternity if i do not.

anyway, thankyou for your gracious replies and patience with me.




Greetings Brother,

The short answer is that Paul wrote to a mix of believers and unbelievers. The historical (visible) church has always had and will always have a mix of sheep and goats in its midst. So, the Apostles include these warnings because they are legitimate warnings. If someone professes to be a Christian and then falls away from that belief and profession, they will not be saved. The warning is real. Now, I would also add that I don't believe that the person was ever a "sheep". They were always a "goat".

Also, I believe the way we use the word "Christian" needs to be examined. I apply the term Christian to people who make a profession of faith and don't give me a reason to doubt it. Now, just because an individual is called a Christian does not mean they are elect, as everyone agrees. So, in a sense, like Paul said "not all Israel is Israel", I believe we can also say "not all Christians are Christians". I hope you catch what I am saying here. I am saying not all those who are called Christians are Christians. In light of this, yes, the warnings apply to Christians. If someone claiming the name of Christ falls away, they will not be saved. They are not and never were Christ's sheep.

I hope this helps. Please let me know if you need more clarification.

With care in Christ...


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/10/6 14:16Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

hello brother Taylor, hope you are well.

I agree to most of what you are saying, the only thing i am not fully convinced about is a true christian can not fall away, so in a sense my only "objection" would be this

Quote:
If someone claiming the name of Christ falls away, they will not be saved. They are not and never were Christ's sheep.



Probably, and i am convinced this is true about many professors, but i am also convinced this is not so for all, i am convinced some are true christians but after abandoning the faith and the Lord that bought them, they will perish in the end.

I think this verse from one of Peters epistles show us even such men that are false apostles, can at one point have been true believers, such that teach damnable heresies where once his. He bought them, and i do not seem to understand how you can be bought by God through Christ blood and not be saved?

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even [b]denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. [/b]


But again, i am not saying or believing this is the faith of all who fall, or fail at some point in their walk, but i think there is somewhere a line, when we cross that line, departing from the living God, despising his work and gift to us, that we will perish, even if we did know him in truth. I know this is hard for many of my reformed brethren to believe :-) but i think it is worth considering even if we are persuaded differently.

Gods grace and peace to all


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2009/10/8 7:04Profile
trueblue
Member



Joined: 2009/9/1
Posts: 62


 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:




Probably, and i am convinced this is true about many professors, but i am also convinced this is not so for all, i am convinced some are true christians but after abandoning the faith and the Lord that bought them, they will perish in the end.

I think this verse from one of Peters epistles show us even such men that are false apostles, can at one point have been true believers, such that teach damnable heresies where once his. He bought them, and i do not seem to understand how you can be bought by God through Christ blood and not be saved?

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even [b]denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. [/b]


But again, i am not saying or believing this is the faith of all who fall, or fail at some point in their walk, but i think there is somewhere a line, when we cross that line, departing from the living God, despising his work and gift to us, that we will perish, even if we did know him in truth. I know this is hard for many of my reformed brethren to believe :-) but i think it is worth considering even if we are persuaded differently.

Gods grace and peace to all


G`day brother..well if you hold to the view of unlimited atonement then you can assuredly say that the Lord indeed did buy them

2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
:-)

 2009/10/8 7:49Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
He bought them, and i do not seem to understand how you can be bought by God through Christ blood and not be saved?



Greetings Brother,

So in light of this quote from you, I guess your view of the atonement is Calvinistic? I thought that the universal atonement position taught Christ's blood was shed for everyone?

I just wanted to get this clarification before continuing.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/10/8 8:59Profile





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