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BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re: Question on the fire video ??

Quote:

trueblue wrote:
[b]Nate Pfeil in the fire video made comment that Christians will find themselves in hell..could someone clarify to me where in scripture[/b] that born again belivers will be absent from the body present with the devil???



Perhaps, Rom 1:23 speaks to this issue since it is written to born-again believers in the faith:

Rom 1:23 And he that doubteth is [b]damned[/b] if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: [b]for whatsoever is not of faith is sin[/b].

 2009/10/6 10:05Profile
trueblue
Member



Joined: 2009/9/1
Posts: 62


 Re:

myself have come to peace with there is no security outside Christ, i believe as in any relationship its a "duet" :-) but its a special duet, where only one can get the glory, he has done all for me, he does all in me, and everything is through faith, yet he has done it in such a way i can participate and make my decisions. I can decide to live wholly for the kingdom of God, burn out for him, sacrifice my life for him, through his enabling grace, or i can just live my life as i want, i can chose that.

So basically in this duet are you are stating that my cooperation(after conversion)is paramount to my salvation..in other words my own effort or works in the duet is necessary??..is this a faith and works duet i must ask..much love in the saviour!!

john 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled".

 2009/10/6 10:11Profile
trueblue
Member



Joined: 2009/9/1
Posts: 62


 Re:

BlazedbyGod wrote:




Perhaps, Rom 1:23 speaks to this issue since it is written to born-again believers in the faith:

Rom 1:23 And he that doubteth is [b]damned[/b] if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: [b]for whatsoever is not of faith is sin[/b].

Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed [are] pure; but [it is] evil for that man who eateth with offence.


Rom 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

Dear Matthew Henry writes on the the word damned in verse 23...damned, katakekritai—he is condemned of his own conscience, because he eateth not of faith, because he does that which he is not fully persuaded he may lawfully do. He is not clear that it is lawful for him to eat swine's flesh (suppose), and yet is drawn, notwithstanding his doubts, to eat it, because he sees others do it, because he would gratify his appetite with it, or because he would not be reproached for his singularity. Here his own heart cannot but condemn him as a transgressor.

Nowhere in the above scripture does it suggest that the weaker Christian is damned to Hell!!

 2009/10/6 10:35Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, Jesus said He would never leave us or forsake us... watch the president of the u.s. if he goes anywhere he is with security ... they never leave him... no matter where he goes...no matter if he wants privacy or not they are there... how much more Jesus who has died for us already,adopted us and lives inside us...He said nothing can pluck us out of His hand.i choose to rest in Jesus and His finished work and His promises to me for He loves me and knows me. why would He save me when i was an enemy of God and not keep me when i am His son.jimp

 2009/10/6 10:41Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

trueblue wrote:
BlazedbyGod wrote:



Perhaps, Rom 1:23 speaks to this issue since it is written to born-again believers in the faith:

Rom 1:23 And he that doubteth is [b]damned[/b] if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: [b]for whatsoever is not of faith is sin[/b].

Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed [are] pure; but [it is] evil for that man who eateth with offence.


Rom 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

Dear Matthew Henry writes on the the word damned in verse 23...damned, katakekritai—he is condemned of his own conscience, because he eateth not of faith, because he does that which he is not fully persuaded he may lawfully do. He is not clear that it is lawful for him to eat swine's flesh (suppose), and yet is drawn, notwithstanding his doubts, to eat it, because he sees others do it, because he would gratify his appetite with it, or because he would not be reproached for his singularity. Here his own heart cannot but condemn him as a transgressor.

Nowhere in the above scripture does it suggest that the weaker Christian is damned to Hell!!



The word "damned" in Rom 14:23 is the same word "damned" in this verse also:

Mark 16:16 "....he that believeth not shall be damned

That would seem pretty clear to me-even though no where in this verse is hell mentioned-the meaning of damned is quite clear-and it is the same greek word in Rom 14:23

Katakrino: 1.to give judgment against, to judge worthy of punishment
a.to condemn
b.by one's good example to render another's wickedness the more evident and censurable

They are the same word in Mark 16:16 and Rom 1:23 :-)

 2009/10/6 11:32Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3487
Louisiana

 Re:

"Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."

The Word is clear that those that abide in Christ will bring forth much fruit and those that do not abide in Christ will be cut off.

If we are truly saved then we will bring forth fruit in our life. There will be a love for God within us and a hatred for sin.

There are warnings in the Word of God concerning falling away from the faith.

A Christian should be secure about their salvation, but this security will come as a result of them abiding in Christ and being conformed more and more into the image and likeness of the Son of God.

There are many that have prayed a prayer at an altar that has not resulted in any change in their lives. The Church is doing these people an injustice in telling them that they are saved without any corresponding fruit being produced in their lives.

On the other hand, the accuser of the brethren will attempt to bring a child of God into condmenation when they fall into some sin. There are many that are looking to their own works and righteousness in an attempt to justify themselves before God. Our salvation rests on Christ alone and the finished work of the cross.

Mike


_________________
Mike

 2009/10/6 11:43Profile
trueblue
Member



Joined: 2009/9/1
Posts: 62


 Re:

Quote:

BlazedbyGod wrote:


The word "damned" in Rom 14:23 is the same word "damned" in this verse also:

Mark 16:16 "....he that believeth not shall be damned

That would seem pretty clear to me-even though no where in this verse is hell mentioned-the meaning of damned is quite clear-and it is the same greek word in Rom 14:23

Katakrino: 1.to give judgment against, to judge worthy of punishment
a.to condemn
b.by one's good example to render another's wickedness the more evident and censurable

They are the same word in Mark 16:16 and Rom 1:23 :-)



Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The word many in this scripture is mentioned twice and is the same word in the greek.Does many in the above scripture have the same meaning...NO

As for the scripture in Mark it is speaking of the unbeliever while the the scripture in Romans speaks of the weaker brethern.Of course the unbeliever is damned to Hell but the weaker brother is JUDGED by his own conscience...Blessings!!

:-)

 2009/10/6 12:19Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

trueblue wrote:


So basically in this duet are you are stating that my cooperation(after conversion)is paramount to my salvation..in other words my own effort or works in the duet is necessary??..is this a faith and works duet i must ask..much love in the saviour!!

john 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled".





first id like to say many of these discussions become very fruitless due to the fact almost every one of them drift into "what if" and so on, so we have theoretical discussion. And both sides have their "but what if" and by those buts find faults or "holes" in the other side.

I think it is laid out such in scripture God have made it such that in HIS sovereign way he chose that man could chose freely. The main issue for me is love, love is voluntary, i said many times that those dolls i can buy at a toystore for my little girls, some have a string or a button to push, when pushed the doll says "I love you". That is not true love, yet it seems this is many believers view on how their love for God is, i am not saying we are saved by works, by faith lest any man should boast, we are kept by faith, we overcome by faith. Everything is by faith.

Yes i know many scripture give great assurance, and the verses that say No one can pluck us out of Gods hand i believe in them, not even satan can or any thing or man or demon. I believe that, but i believe if any man want to bad enough not to be any longer in Gods hand, due to love of self, the world or sin, and chose freely to "jump" out of Gods hand i do not think God will stop them. I know many do not share my view on this and it is ok, this is my own beliefs, and yet i am not afraid i will fall away, nor that i will not overcome, nor that if i sin once God will cast me away. I do not live in fear, i have found i have greater assurance then most believers i have meet. I think it comes down to that very heart issue, love, we see Adam in the garden had a choice, he did not have the sin curse that we have, yet he chose wrong, I believe we to have a choice. But many make the mistake, if i can call it that to make a decision into a work based salvation. I dont see it that way,I just see that God is calling out to his people, his church to be radical and sold out to him, the book of revelation has a bunch of "scary" scriptures that ought to make us all make our salvation and election sure.

Also i think the hundreds of verses that say "if" , "when" , "stand fast" , "take heed" , are there for a reason. Just as the assurance verses are there for a reason, i do know the reason is not to debate them forth and back, but rather to believe them and obey, and encourage our brethren daily, building ourselves up in the most holy faith. And to say to a believer "you can never fall away" no matter how much you sin, fall, reject Gods will, refuse to obey him, live for your self and love money etc, it does not matter God has saved you and he will see you in heaven. I dont see that in scripture, and i know many who hold the other view from me will say "such people are maybe never born again to start with?" , probably true in many cases, but in other i think not. and those who may lean towards the other side may go into extreme teachings and say "oh if you sin one time you will go to hell" i would shake such talk of like dust to, the thing is scripture is balanced, and mentions both assurance and also great insecurity for all who does not live and walk as they should in their inner being. That is also scripture. The problem is when we feed to much our knowledge in our flesh, we want so desperately to know how it works out, we can not even grasp how great Gods created universe is, then how can we grasp the act of redeeming this creation and how that works out? in every detail, sure we understand stars, moons and orbits and many more things, but so much we can not understand, and with God and man there is a whole lot we can understand, some things we can not, and some are harder to understand and so on.

what my point is, is this :-) you dont have to have my view on this, but just see to it that we love God and man, and if we seek him in truth and humility he may reveal it to us when we are mature enough to handle it.

anyway, i just think many of those who hold eternal security misunderstand me many a times.


God bless


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2009/10/6 12:29Profile
reformer
Member



Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


 Re:

Quote:

sermonindex wrote:
Quote:
Its either secure or not secure? Which is it?


Personally I find it sad that we have this attitude. Who are we to put our questions to God, if His scriptures state the possibility of falling then we must accept it, also if God's scriptures say we are secure as we abide and trust (believe) in Christ then we should believe it also.

I would be wary of demanding a answer from scripture that pleases our logic when Scripture testifies against worldly wisdom and is a wisdom that is from above.

Take Heed. Oh may we catch the sense of those words in scripture.



The question is an honest question directed towards you, not to God. Your reading to much into what I said.

I don't appreciate the condescending tone. You don't know what I am referring too or what I am about. I am sorry that my question caused you to be terse...Its not my intention. So I apologize.




 2009/10/6 12:32Profile
reformer
Member



Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
Quote:

trueblue wrote:

hmmhmm wrote:


So are we suggesting here that eternal security is based on ME abiding in him..so its me that keeps His salvation and not His salvation that keeps me?




no i am not suggesting, scripture says:

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.



this passage as i understand it is for those who follow Christ, they are saved, without HIM they can do nothing, so it says, yet in the same breath he also says: to the same ones one must think it is... he says

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.


what does the words IF mean? now since this thread is drifting towards unwanted territory, i suggest we should ask the Lord instead, myself have come to peace with there is no security outside Christ, i believe as in any relationship its a "duet" :-) but its a special duet, where only one can get the glory, he has done all for me, he does all in me, and everything is through faith, yet he has done it in such a way i can participate and make my decisions. I can decide to live wholly for the kingdom of God, burn out for him, sacrifice my life for him, through his enabling grace, or i can just live my life as i want, i can chose that. And personally after much study, and searching the word my conclusion so far is, there is no such thing as eternal security if not eternally abiding in him through faith. of course i can be wrong, i have been before, but so far this is my conviction.

Now i withdraw and pray we would all abide through his grace , God bless



Thanks Hmmmhmm..clarified well!! :-)

 2009/10/6 12:35Profile





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