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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Christian College Pulpit To Be Yielded to Heretical Teacher.

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Denny
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 199
Virginia

 Re:

(Agape Press picked up the story and ran this news item)

Campolo's Campus Appearance Called Into Question
Christian College Ignoring 'False Teacher,' Says Pennsylvania Group

By Jim Brown
September 21, 2004

(AgapePress) - A Christian group is asking an Assemblies of God Bible college in Pennsylvania to drop a frequent guest chapel speaker because of his heretical beliefs. But the school's president is defending his decision to invite a man who holds to universalist theology and an unbiblical view of homosexuality.

Dr. Don Meyer says he is not backing down from his decision to once again welcome Dr. Tony Campolo to preach in chapel today (Tuesday) at Valley Forge Christian College, a small four-year college located northwest of Philadelphia. Campolo, a well-known media commentator on religious, social and political matters, often preaches with his wife in homosexual-affirming churches, where he has stated that the homosexual "did not choose homosexuality," but is rather "a victim either of biological accident or someone else's folly."

Campolo is also founder of the Evangelical Association for the Promotion of Education, an inner-city ministry that combines evangelism and social justice in public schools, universities, orphanages, literacy centers, and tutoring programs. But Michael Marcavage, director of the Philadelphia-based group Repent America, says Valley Forge Christian College is ignoring the scriptural command to mark and avoid false teachers.

"Through the years, obviously, Tony Campolo has promoted many unbiblical doctrines," Marcavage says. "This goes back to his book A Reasonable Faith in which he developed the false concept that Christ lives in all human beings regardless whether they are Christian."

VFCC president Meyer says he has never read the book, but believes Campolo's views are often taken out of context or misunderstood. "I have heard him share regarding the core tenets of the gospel and what it means to be a Christian by having Jesus as Lord and Savior," Dr. Meyer shares. "I've heard him in numerous settings, not merely here on our campus."

Still, Marcavage says Meyer is ignoring a false teacher who has claimed he is changing the evangelical community from within by targeting young people. "He has spoken out against Christian ministries, such as Exodus International, which help homosexuals overcome their struggle with their sinful desires and practices," the Repent America leader explains. "He declares that there's a biological basis for homosexuality -- and he has stated that we cannot expect such a person to change his orientation."

In an interview published by Beliefnet, Campolo states that "the overwhelming proportion of the gay community that love Jesus, that go to church, that are deeply committed in spiritual things, try to change and can’t change. And the Church acts as though they are just stubborn and unwilling, when in reality they can’t change." But he also states his position that "same-gender eroticism [homosexual activity] is not a Christian lifestyle."

Last year more than a dozen representatives from Marcavage's group gathered outside VFCC to call attention to Campolo's teachings and to call school officials to repentance. The objective of that effort, the Repent America leader says, was to point out to faculty members and students "the danger of allowing their pulpit to be used by someone who disregards the authority of scripture."

Campolo, a professor emeritus of sociology at Eastern University in St. Davids, Pennsylvania, is an ordained minister and has served American Baptist churches in New Jersey and Pennsylvania. He once told American Family Radio News that animals could obtain salvation.


_________________
Dennis Green

 2004/9/24 7:03Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Hulsey,

[i]"I simply put down the verse."[/i] That is precisely the problem. It is not at all obvious from the verses that they address anything concerning genetics; the best you could argue is that it is neither for nor against the possibility of hereditary and environmental factors. The possibility remains there.

Furthermore, I did not say [i]"God gave them over to these perversions because of a genetic condition,"[/i] that is your (false) interpretation of what I have said. I have consistently said that engaging in homosexual practice is a conscious act of sin against God.

That being said, I am open to the [i]possibility[/i] of hereditary and/or environmental factors that might cause some people to be more prone to the sins of homosexuality. But of course, ultimately, one must take responsibility for one's sinful actions and not blame heredity or environment. One may be more inclined towards homosexuality, but one is responsible for conducting oneself in a godly manner.

This, in my view, does not contradict with Scripture [i]at all[/i].

Sam


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Sam

 2004/9/24 9:13Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re: Homosexuals Solution: Celibacy vs Hetrosexuality

Jeremy & Sam,

May I take opportunity to act as a mediator in this discussion (please don't read on if the answer is "No":-))?

I think that it is clear that neither of you (and me for that matter), believe that homosexuality is genetic, at least enough to allow it as excuse for sinful behaviour. I would like to use a slight analogy to explain my opinion of Campolo's stance, believing that it sandwiches itself in between both of yours.

If we turn our attention away from homosexuality, to another "inherited" condition, may we consider drug addiction? In Australia, a man was refused service in an RSL (Retired Services League) club, for being under the influence of heroin, and took the club to court.

The plantiff won his case, on the grounds of descrimination against someone with a disability. The court concluded that the man was incapable of choosing whether or not to be under the influence, due to the highly addictive nature of the drug.

This opened up dangerous precedent, where anyone treated differently for being intoxicated by an addictive substance, to claim disability status. Consider the ramifications. A truck driver could sue his employer for terminating him for driving under the influence of alcohol, on the basis of being an "alcoholic".

Having been a drug addict in my prechristian life, I know that it is not as simple as just saying, "Okay, I'll stop tomorrow." There are steps that need to be taken. Firstly, a realisation that there is something wrong with the substance. Secondly, a desire to quit. Thirdly, a seperation from the substances concerned. Fourthly, a hatred of the substance, and the way they affect you (if the abstainance is to be permanent). Generally, the third step should be accompanied by a disassociation with other addicts, who will try to lure you back.

Personally, it took me over one year, from accepting Christ to quitting. Alarmingly, it took one month from me realising that there really was a problem to quitting. It only took one millisecond to quit, from the final time I used. Even though I had quit, it wasn't until six months later that I was confident that I wouldn't go back (By the way, it's been ten years now:-)).

I didn't go from thinking "Drugs are bad" to "I'll never go back" in a heart beat. Admittedly, many have, but that is only by the grace of God. God is capable of transforming a life instentaneously, but man cannot, by will alone. To say that people don't choose to become homosexual is true. No one in their right mind wakes up one morning saying "You know what, I think I might start sleeping with guys." (Unless your female) Homosexuals, like all sinners, are victims of circumstances that can be traced right back to the tree of knowledge. They are also to be held responsible for their actions, by God, as any other sinner.

To call the homosexual to celibacy, is the same as calling the drug addict to quit. The homosexual may find his thoughts wandering to his past life, but abstainence is the key. The heroin addict longs for the pin prick, but it's the action of emptying the needle that crosses him over. However, as with the drug addict, if the homosexual is to become truly heterosexual, then he needs to be "transformed, by the renewing of the mind" rather than settling with being "conformed with this world".

Jesus was clear in presenting the Sermon on the Mount, that He is more conerned with the "inner man" than the "outward action". Any sinner that hasn't changed his attitude toward his sin, has to face the fact that he hasn't repented (see J Edwin Orr's The Church Must First Repent, particularly the explaination of the greek word for repentance, "metanoia"). To say that it's okay to be a "celibate homosexual", is like saying the it's okay to fantasise about other women, if you're married. I believe that this denies the power of grace and the gospel, and leaves the homosexual committing "homosexuality in his heart".

However, to say the the homosexual should be able to get married, is only true is true repentance takes place. If not, the his marriage would all be an act, because the homosexual would be longing for another partner, that being his own gender. My unterstanding is that, the literal translation of the word rendered "hypocracy" is "play acting". In otherwords, to pretend that something is one way, when really it's another. The homosexual that marries a woman, out of obligation to principle, rather than being compelled by true love (as opposed, is a hypocrite and has to face the fact that hypocracy is Jesus' most despised sin.

All in all,the homosexual issue is a very complex and highly volatile one. To suggest to someone who puts high priority on sexual gratification that they can be with someone who can know who to give optimal pleasure them, because they have first hand experience of the way their biology work, would not only be tempting but also hideously logical. This is the thought we need to consider before forming opinions about the decisions that homosexuals have made about the gender identity. It is therefore a condition that would be incredibly difficult (if not impossible) to leave behind. However, in the words of Jesus, "with God all things are possible".

Just in case anyone thinks that I hold a lukewarm stance on homosexuality, an example of my personal view of the homosexual debate, as presented "out in the marketplace", can be found by clicking here.


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Aaron Ireland

 2004/9/27 2:06Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

[b]CJaKfOrEsT[/b]:

Thanks for the input. I think our views are similar.

Sam


_________________
Sam

 2004/9/27 9:39Profile
Denny
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 199
Virginia

 Re:

To call the homosexual to celibacy, is the same as calling the drug addict to quit. The homosexual may find his thoughts wandering to his past life, but abstainence is the key. The heroin addict longs for the pin prick, but it's the action of emptying the needle that crosses him over. However, as with the drug addict, if the homosexual is to become truly heterosexual, then he needs to be "transformed, by the renewing of the mind" rather than settling with being "conformed with this world".

Jesus was clear in presenting the Sermon on the Mount, that He is more conerned with the "inner man" than the "outward action". Any sinner that hasn't changed his attitude toward his sin, has to face the fact that he hasn't repented (see J Edwin Orr's The Church Must First Repent, particularly the explaination of the greek word for repentance, "metanoia"). To say that it's okay to be a "celibate homosexual", is like saying the it's okay to fantasise about other women, if you're married. I believe that this denies the power of grace and the gospel, and leaves the homosexual committing "homosexuality in his heart".

Quote:


Your last two sentences are key in the discussion on Campolo's veiw of homosexuality. Read them again. The problem with Campolo's stance on homosexulaity is that he does not see it neccessary (in my reading) to have that new heart. Being celibate doesn't save. Abstaining from immoral behavior doesn't save. Becoming a new creation is neccessary. The homosexuals who I have shared the Gospel with at sodomite rallies who think Campolo is the greatest thing since sliced bread were all still labeling themselves as "homosexua". Some were frequently still sodomizing each other and some said that they had been celibate for some years. The great problem was that they all still willinigly wore the label, "homosexual". They had gained a peace in there own lives, so they would say, that they could still be homosexual and still be accepted in God's sight. This is abominable. Child molesters, rapists, adulterers, theives and all other sinners must lay down their sin and become new creations to be accepted by the Father. To be a thief, adulterer, child molester, homosexual, etc. in our heart without the outward manifestion is still evil in God's eyes. Campolo, in my estimation gives comfort to those who need conviction. In this case, comfort is thier worst emeny. Their testimony must be "But such were some of you" not "This is what I am".

Keep in mind the fact that his stance on homosexulality is only one of many unbiblical stances this false teacher takes.


_________________
Dennis Green

 2004/9/27 11:50Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

[b]Denny,[/b]

Quote:
This is abominable. Child molesters, rapists, adulterers, theives and all other sinners must lay down their sin and become new creations to be accepted by the Father. To be a thief, adulterer, child molester, homosexual, etc. in our heart without the outward manifestion is still evil in God's eyes.

I have no problem with the biblical fact that "sinners must lay down their sin and become new creations." However, your latter characterisation of "homosexual in our heart without the outward manifestation" is confusing the active indulgence in sinful thoughts (such as stealing, adultery, molestation, and homosexual acts) with the fact that these people are more prone to these temptations. However, it is not a sin to be tempted, it is only a sin when we actively indulge in sinful thoughts and lusts and behaviors.

To say that my position is "leaving the homosexual to commit homosexuality in the heart" is a gross misrepresentation. And to characterise my position as leaving out the importance of repentance ("metanoia") is likewise a false characterisation.

There is also nothing analogous in what I have said to saying "it's okay to fantasize about other women if you're married". I did not say that they can indulge in homosexual fantasies. All I am saying is that they must obey God's created order, regardless of how strongly they feel inclined towards those of the same gender.

Again, there are many Bible-believing Christians who hold different views as to whether homosexuality is hereditary or not. [i]It is not necessary to [b]misrepresent[/b] other people's perspective in order to justify your own.[/i]

Sam


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Sam

 2004/10/4 14:30Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Agent001 wrote:
There is also nothing analogous in what I have said to saying "it's okay to fantasize about other women if you're married". I did not say that they can indulge in homosexual fantasies. All I am saying is that they must obey God's created order, regardless of how strongly they feel inclined towards those of the same gender.

Again, there are many Bible-believing Christians who hold different views as to whether homosexuality is hereditary or not. [i]It is not necessary to [b]misrepresent[/b] other people's perspective in order to justify your own.[/i]

Sam



Brother Sam,

I'm sorry if I offended you. My main purpose for posting in the fist place, was because I was seeing two people arguing over what is essentially a nonessiential. Who really cares whether homosexuality is inherited or not.

I was merely tring to say, there shouldn't be an arguement, as you agreed on the nonessentials, that's all. You're right about fantasies and actions being different. My only question would be, do they have a problem with it occuring? I do when my fantasies are heterosexual, so where is the line?

By bringing metanoia into the conversation, I was trying to bring grace into consideration, that's all. A christian should not be content with anything less than a changed life. I know you believe that, I just word it different.:-)

In the words of a shampoo ad over here in Oz, "It won't happen over night, but it will happen."


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Aaron Ireland

 2004/10/5 23:41Profile





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