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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Christian College Pulpit To Be Yielded to Heretical Teacher.

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Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Quote:
2 Corithians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all thing have become new.

This verse does not say all gays will no longer have homosexual inclinations when they become Christians, just as it does not say all sinners will no longer have the inclinations to sin, and not all sick are healed.

I think you get my point. :>


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Sam

 2004/9/22 15:31Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:


Quote:
I think you get my point. :>



Ah, but I think you miss the point. Being tempted is qualitatively different from acting on those temptations. A new creation can be tempted to go back into sin, but a new creation
who is living in the Spirit will fullfil that law of the Spirit instead of the lust of the flesh. :-)


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2004/9/22 15:48Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Theophilus:

You said:
[i]The issue here is not about genetics, bents or dents but rather of sin. If we were made new creatures then why is celibacy the ONLY biblical option.[/i]

You missed my conditional statement: [i]"even if Christians grant that there are genetic factors leading to homosexual inclinations, the only biblical option..."[/i] I am saying whether or not homosexual inclinations are inborn is not important, because either way one must [b]not[/b] continue to indulge in homosexual practices.

You asked:
[i]Can they not marry and live as heterosexual males? Is it impossible for God to give them a changed heart?[/i]

My answer: yes, it is possible for God to change them. Does God always change their sexual orientation? Maybe. Maybe not. He is sovereign.


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Sam

 2004/9/22 15:53Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Quote:
Ah, but I think you miss the point.

I did not miss your point, I just disagree with your point. I was talking hypothetically that even if homosexuality is genetic, then the homosexual person who has believed in the Lord would have to forsake their homosexual practices. God does not necessarily heal all our diseases when we become Christians.


_________________
Sam

 2004/9/22 15:58Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

The burden of proof lies with those who would make homosexuality into a genetic condition. It would be a horrible thing for God to classify a birth defect as a sin. Homosexuality is not a condition of genetics, but a fruit of the sinful nature.


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2004/9/22 16:17Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Quote:
The burden of proof lies with those who would make homosexuality into a genetic condition. It would be a horrible thing for God to classify a birth defect as a sin. [b]Homosexuality is not a condition of genetics, but a fruit of the sinful nature.[/b]

That is a statement made from inference, not from scripture, nor scientific research (not that you care about the latter anyways).

All I am saying is that evangelical Christians can put forth a case against homosexual practices regardless of their positions on whether homosexuality is fully or partly genetic, or not at all. I think both positions are legitimate, and is far from being "heretic."


_________________
Sam

 2004/9/22 16:31Profile
Denny
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 199
Virginia

 Re:

Quote:
I have yet to see the "overwhelming evidence" of him preaching "another gospel." Care to enlighten me? :)



On a recent edition of CNN's Crossfire, Tony Campolo refused to say Jesus is the only way to heaven. The panel was discussing events at the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta. Campolo would not answer the question directly but said, "The Apostle Paul says that there are people who have light that is not Christian light, and they will be judged on that basis."

On a recent edition of CNN's Crossfire, Tony Campolo refused to say Jesus is the only way to heaven. The panel was discussing events at the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta. Campolo would not answer the question directly but said, "The Apostle Paul says that there are people who have light that is not Christian light, and they will be judged on that basis."

In an earlier appearance on PBS's Charlie Rose, Campolo muddied theological waters by stating, "I am saying that there is no salvation apart from Jesus; that's my evangelical mindset. However, I am not convinced that Jesus only lives in Christians" (National Liberty Journal, 8/99).

-----------------------------------

Tony Campolo, spiritual advisor to President Clinton, defended Clinton's decision to declare June as "Gay Pride Month" and affirmed his belief in a universalist theology on a recent CNN Crossfire program. The June 15, 1999, Crossfire broadcast featured a debate between Jerry Falwell and Tony Campolo on various political and theological issues. When asked by Falwell what he thinks about the president's decision to declare June as "Gay Pride Month," Campolo said, "It's a pluralistic society, and I think that he is endeavoring to affirm people" He continued to defend Clinton's decision and concluded by adding, "Love requires justice and acceptance." Later in the broadcast, co-host Bill Press (who said the idea that "Jesus is the only way to heaven" is "really wrong") asked Falwell whether Jesus Christ was the only way to heaven or whether those of other religions who had lived exemplary lives would also be able to enter the kingdom of heaven. While Falwell correctly answered that only those who trust in Jesus Christ would receive salvation, Campolo responded by saying, "We need to hold Christ up as the Savior, but I think we need to leave judgment in the hands of God." Falwell then asked Campolo, "Do you believe anyone has ever gone to heaven apart from Christ, yes or no?" Campolo responded, "I go with the Scriptures." After refusing to answer Falwell's question with a simple yes or no, Campolo, who claims to be an evangelical Christian, eventually responded by saying, "The apostle Paul says that there are people who have light that is not Christian light, and they will be judged on that basis." Such a statement is a blasphemous denial of the necessity of the death and resurrection of Christ and of the necessity for all to hear the Gospel message. God's Word declares that no individual apart from salvation by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone can be justified in the sight of God (Rom. 5:1-21).

-------------------------------------------

"It seems to me that a gay couple could go to a church like hers (Peggy) and get their marriage blessed. They couldn't come to mine and get their marriage blessed. But I think it's up to a local congregation to determine whether or not a marriage should be blessed of God. And it shouldn't be up to the government." Campolo quote about "gay marriage"

my comment...
Since when is it up to local congregations to decide whether sodomite marriages should be blessed. In God's sight sodomy is an abomination, period.

----------------------------------

"The reality is that at least 35 percent of us (that's a large group; it's a minority, but it's a large group of evangelicals) voted for Bill Clinton the last time he ran for president. Many of us have concerns about the Democratic Party, but we have even more concerns about the Republican Party. Thus, we vote Democratic not because we're totally in agreement with that party allegiance, but because it seems to be more slanted in the direction that we want to go." quote by Campolo

---------------------------------------

Several other of Campolo's major planks on this issue:

* His assertion, as a Christian sociologist, is that there are few completely homosexual or heterosexual people. He points to 210 sexual traits possessed by every human being, including the length of the fingers, the makeup of the eyes and the texture of the hair. Each person finds himself or herself somewhere on that complex continuum.

* He refuses to get into the "heredity or environment" argument. And from that position, he maintains that, while "miracles" do occur, those who successfully leave homosexual behavior to take up male-female sexual relationships permanently, are almost invariably bisexual rather than homosexual.

* He challenges pastors to recognize that there are at least a few gay men and/or lesbians in every congregation, almost without exception. Church leaders, he suggests, need to provide real support systems to homosexuals who want to be celibate, rather than simply moralizing or trying to change their orientation.

* Churches that work with people in the arts communities, he asserts, are relatively more likely to be ministering to gays, because, as a group, they are attracted to the arts and bring a great deal to that community. Often, for example, gay people provide musical or drama leadership in churches, to such an extent that congregations would be deprived of worship resources if those people were not there.

* He suggests that risk-taking pastors will provide pastoral care to gay people, even to the extent of encouraging and recognizing stable relationships. He says such pastors will be prepared to counsel for such stable relationships thus encouraging gay people to leave promiscuous lifestyles.

---------------------------------

Campolo signed an article in the liberal Sojourners magazine in May 1981, which lambasted the United States and stated that Roman Catholicism was the one bright light in the dark situation in El Salvador: "The Roman Catholic church is being converted to the poor in El Salvador." This is a reference to the wicked Liberation Theology movement in Romanism, a movement which substitutes the salvation of society for the salvation of the soul. Liberation Theology is Christianized Marxism, but here we find Campolo signing a statement which called it a "bright light."

--------------------------------------

That Campolo was absolved of heresy by a panel of so-called leading evangelicals (chaired by J.I. Packer) [see the 9/20/85, Christianity Today, pp. 30-38; the 12/13/85, Christianity Today, p. 52; and the 8/9/89, Christianity Today] is amazing when one considers even more Campoloisms. (The following are excerpted from those reported in the January 1991, CIB Bulletin.):

(a) "There are those who would limit Jesus to being present only in those who acknowledge Him as Lord and Savior, but I will not accept that limitation. I believe that Jesus is present even in ... those who refuse Him."

(b) "Then it hit me -- humanness and Godness are one and the same ... Jesus was God because He was fully human and He was fully human because He was God ..."

(c) "Jesus is the only Savior, but not everybody who is being saved by Him is aware that He is the One who is doing the saving ..." [This sounds strangely like the idea that each man may come to God in his own way without any understanding of God's way of salvation (a lá C.S. Lewis).]
----------------------------

- Campolo claims that homosexual orientation is inborn in many or most cases, and refers to "evangelical homosexuality." He has related how two homosexual men "solved their problems of loneliness" by living in a celibate "covenant" relationship "in all love and tenderness." He even makes the blasphemous claim that Christians will have difficulty finding any Biblical condemnation of romantic feelings between persons of the same sex (cf. Rom. 1:18ff)!! (Reported in the 4/1/91, Calvary Contender; and in a 2/7/94, ACCC report on the 1994 NRB Convention.)

---------------------------------
- Campolo has the dubious honor of being former President Clinton's "good friend ... in Philadelphia" (Clinton's 1/25/94 state of the Union address). After reading an interview with Campolo in the 1/94 Bookstore Journal, it is understandable why Clinton would consider Campolo a friend. Clinton and Gore hosted 12 "evangelical" leaders at a private breakfast 10/18/93 in the White House, one of which was Campolo. Afterwards Campolo claimed that Clinton and Gore "understand the fundamental evangelical ethos." He says Clinton "is not only a Christian ... [who] has a very high view of Scripture... [but also is] a deeply religious man." (Reported in the 3/94 issue of The Lofton Letter, p. 8.)

My comment..
clearly Campolo has little if any spirtitual discernment.
-------------------------------
Campolo said "I agree with the Pope's implication that the young cannot be allowed to seek Christ apart from the church." He said "the most important pastor of any church body in the world today [is] the Pope." (Source: 12/15/97, Calvary Contender.)
----------------------------------
On unity with false religions--
"I know we cannot complete the job ourselves, of course. That is why we Christians, along with our Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters, wait earnestly for the Messiah to come and join us. We look forward to that great day when the good work that God has begun in and through us will be brought to completion." Tony Campolo, from a recent article
---------------------------------

I could go on..... and on.... and on....


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Dennis Green

 2004/9/22 18:34Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Quote:
That is a statement made from inference, not from scripture, nor scientific research (not that you care about the latter anyways).



Romans 1:26-27 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men leaving the natural use of the woman burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

Sounds pretty scriptural to me. I could have put down more but this one is pretty clear. And you're right about one thing, I don't care at all when pseudo-science sets its self against the clear teaching of the Word of God.

This begs the question yet again: Are we to let science determine our interpretation of scripture or are we going to let scripture interpret scripture.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2004/9/22 23:47Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Quote:
This begs the question yet again: Are we to let science determine our interpretation of scripture or are we going to let scripture interpret scripture.

Answer: No. But you have assumed that your [i]own[/i] interpretation to be completely free from presuppositions.

In my understanding, the view that homosexuality could be genetic does not necessarily contradict with the verses from Romans. I absolutely agree that it is God's intention that sex be confined within marriage between a man and a woman. I do not find the two concepts to be mutually exclusive.

Your usual tactic of asserting your point is by identifying your own interpretation as the "plain reading of scripture," whereas all other legitimate understandings are simply psycho-babble. I really resent that. :-o

No biblical verses "plainly teaches" us about the genetic makeup of human beings. Inferences and presuppositions are heavily involved in coming to your conclusions (in other words, no necessarily "scriptural").

The real bottomline here is that regardless of our views concerning the role of genetics in homosexuality, the Christian must submit to the boundaries that God had set -- sex must exclusively be confined within marriage between one man and woman. This I affirm, and my understanding is that this is what Tony Campolo affirms too.


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Sam

 2004/9/23 8:48Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Quote:
No biblical verses "plainly teaches" us about the genetic makeup of human beings. Inferences and presuppositions are heavily involved in coming to your conclusions (in other words, no necessarily "scriptural").



What inferences?? I just simply put down a verse. The context of Romans if you check it out does not say that God gave them over to these perversions because of a genetic condition, but because of sin. This is not my interpretation. Scripture is involved in coming to my conclusions friend.

Quote:
The real bottomline here is that regardless of our views concerning the role of genetics in homosexuality, the Christian must submit to the boundaries that God had set -- sex must exclusively be confined within marriage between one man and woman. This I affirm, and my understanding is that this is what Tony Campolo affirms too.



Yes, we are all in agreement on this. This has never been in question. The problem the others have with Campolo is that he is so limp wristed towards the homosexual agenda that he actually strengthens their cause instead of leading them to the truth.


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2004/9/23 10:50Profile





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