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KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
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 Re:

Quote:

Therefore, I have asked some Catholics about these things.



It is generally not best to ask Catholics what the RCC teaches, most simply do not know. If you were going to ask, it would probably be best to ask a priest. If you don't have access to a priest to ask, I'd simply recommend studying church history, especially the major church councils, where a lot of these issues came up. Also study the writings of the "fathers" of the first few centuries, and you'll see how their present system and beliefs came into shape.

If you read the Catholic Encylopedia I cited, you'll find that they (as well as theologians like Augustine) saw no contradiction between teaching salvation by unmerited grace, but that such grace was only available through the receiving the sacraments. Such is no different than the problem Paul faced with the Galatian church over the issue of circumcision. Those who 'mutilated' themselves appealed to the grace of God for their salvation, but asserted that grace would only continue to be available to those who received circumcision. Paul said such men might as well go ahead and not stop with the forskin, but go ahead and to cut entire male organ off. Or if he were talking to Catholics, he'd probably tell them to drown in their baptism or gorge themselves with the Lord's supper to ensure they got all the grace they could for salvation.


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Jimmy H

 2009/10/2 18:56Profile
KingJimmy
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 Re:

And Frank, my elder brother, I love you too :-) Behave though... this younger brother of yours has read a LOT of St. Augustine and other dead catholic brains, and has been at various times in my life well versed in Catholic history and theology :-)

*edit* And if put under preassure, I could probably still recite the 7 sacraments without googling them :-)


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Jimmy H

 2009/10/2 19:03Profile
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 Re:

Baptism
Eucharist
Confirmation
Pennance
Matrimony
Holy Orders
Last Rites

Boom shakalaka :-)


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Jimmy H

 2009/10/2 19:11Profile
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 Re:

Appolus,

yes I understand about emphasizing the main things like relationship ect.

Now, it can probably be said that the average nominal Catholic is not spiritual, but so are most Evangelicals.

Traditionally, though I think the Catholics have a deep emphasis of spirituality whether good or bad in prayer, monks, and just general mystic devotion. So, I am not sure that applies so much to the more devoted.

It has been interesting to me that I have heard here and there Evangelicals honoring Catholics. Well, for instance there are the father, but I don't know much of them maybe they taught differently? Or I think of how many honor Mother Teresa and I am not sure what to think of that and I would bet she is devout in her Catholic theology? Or I think of Richard Wurmbrand or some other saying that the most devout people they had met under persecution were Catholics. Or Madame Guyon. Or Nouwen? :/

I think that sharing the spiritual with these would be to some degree like sharing it with Mormons who also emphasize "spiritual" things.

It is a good point that it matters more what the individual believes. I however am specifically trying to figure out what Rome officially teaches though of course it matters how much it is accepted in the local Churches.

I have been thinking over this verse though. For I had previously been thinking that well they mostly believe that they need grace and might have some contradiction in them, but that's okay because we all need mercy. And, I still think that to some degree. But, I hear Paul say that if we rely on one part of the Law we are demanded to keep the whole Law.

It is an interesting thing that many of men fear to not keep the Law, but it should also more so be fearful if one does not keep faith and that perfectly yet I am persuaded there is room for grace on the issue.

It is true to some extent that only God can know some are saved, though there are some we can know whether they are saved or not.

Again, I am talking to more knowledgeable Catholics some were former Protestant ministers. I am on a main apologetic forum. I have already heard them try to refute the Abraham only by faith thing by saying well you see he also had works. So, again I think maybe the terminology and thoughts were mixed up in them not saying we are made right before God by works but that it is not by faith alone in the sense that works will accompany but faith alone in the sense of our righteousness before God if I have heard them right.

As for the term on works that is an important thing you bring up. I think they use it in 2 ways. The first being the works of the law. And, the second being the works of grace or sacraments.

 2009/10/2 20:08Profile
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 Re:

Jimmy,

Quote:
you'll find that they (as well as theologians like Augustine) saw no contradiction between teaching salvation by unmerited grace, but that such grace was only available through the receiving the sacraments.


So, I was right in saying that they do not believe they are saved by the works of the Law or their own righteousness. It would seem though that many Evangelicals are saying that they say they are saved by works and faith.

Now, as to the question of whether taking of sacraments for salvation is a work or not. I have to think over this some. are you sure it is the same as circumcision? I mean people were circumcised to make themselves right by the Law. Whereas people who get baptized do it to be in Christ. Or what of the woman with the flow of blood who touched the hem of Jesus and was healed. Was it a work to touch grace? Was it a work somehow because she had to wrestle through people ect? But even if so it were an action yet was by faith in grace? Someone once told me that sometimes faith needs an action to be accomplished. Like stepping out in faith beyond just believing in the heart to confessing with ones mouth ect. Or think of when Israel looked on the serpent on the rod. Would that be a work because they had to look at an object? Or was it by faith made active by looking?

I will say this that I do not believe faith is a work as Calvinist' will state. I stick with Paul in saying that faith is not a work. It is not so much a grabbing as it is a letting go. It is not so much an effort as it is a surrender. It is not so much a doing as it is receiving that which has been done for you. Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that faith is a work, but instead that it is opposite.

I do wonder if the Reformation in formulating their doctrine in part as a reaction have gone to the other side of extremes in some cases.

As for the talking to a Priest thing. This I agree with I have not been able to get ample info from the average Catholic, but this website forum I am using as I have just previously said is a main apologetic site and some are former Protestant ministers and one is a teacher of Church history at a private university ect.

You know.. I think that as many Evangelicals think that they say they are saved by works of the Law they also believe Evangelicals think they can be saved and have no works at all. And, for some good reason since that is what some Evangelicals teach and some more self deceivingly so.

 2009/10/2 20:20Profile









 Re:

Hi Anonymity (why no name?)

True Christians have always been a danger to the Catholic church. For centuries they hunted down and killed true brothers and sisters in Christ, its an ancient battle between the relgious men and the followers of Christ. I am not so sure what Jean Guyon would say, especially from the Bastille where the Catholic church had her thrown into. As for Mother Theresa, have you read her diaries? Seems like that poor woman was a practising atheist. Many religious men do well under persecution, in fact 1 Cor 13 makes the point that one can even give their body to burned but without the love of God burning in their soul, they have nothing.

James main point was that without a changed life, claims of faith are meaningless. If you want to figure out what Rome teaches, check your history for the last 1600 years. Perhaps Catholic dogma just gets a bad press? Maybe they need another 1600 years to relay the essence of what they believe to the people who follow Catholicism? Or, maybe the people believe exactly what they have been taught to believe, that they have no assurance of salvation, that they need to be sanctified before they can be justified and that to be born again, to have Jesus take up residence in your heart, they have to Baptized and make their first Holy Communion. No, I think that Rome and its dogma is not misunderstood, it has been expertly conveyed to its poor hapless followers, may God have mercy on them that they may see the light of Christ...........Frank

 2009/10/2 21:37
KingJimmy
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 Re:

Quote:

So, I was right in saying that they do not believe they are saved by the works of the Law or their own righteousness. It would seem though that many Evangelicals are saying that they say they are saved by works and faith



No. When you really think about what they teach, and read what they say, what it amounts to is works based salvation. Augustine and the like talk about the grace of God, but they teach that "saving grace" is only available to those who receive the sacraments, namely baptism. "Faith" in Catholicism isn't so much a trust in the Lord for salvation as it is simply mentally agreeing to the creeds of the Church.

Such is why the RCC in practice has had no problem converting people through force. They baptized at the point of the sword, because they saw the baptismal waters as salvific. This is also why they believe and teach that infants must be baptized. This is why they teach that the mentally retarded can experience salvation through water baptism. They believe "baptism is what saves you."

Quote:

Now, as to the question of whether taking of sacraments for salvation is a work or not. I have to think over this some. are you sure it is the same as circumcision?



In the days of the apostle Paul, there were false teachers who taught amongst other things that one much be circumcised and observe the law of Moses in order to be saved. That's the exact same thing that Roman Catholicism teaches, they've simply just substituted one set of rituals for another. That's works based salvation no matter how you slice it (no pun intended).

Quote:

I will say this that I do not believe faith is a work as Calvinist' will state. I stick with Paul in saying that faith is not a work. It is not so much a grabbing as it is a letting go. It is not so much an effort as it is a surrender. It is not so much a doing as it is receiving that which has been done for you. Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that faith is a work, but instead that it is opposite.



Amen. I totally agree. The Scriptures clearly teach that faith is a work, not of man, but of God, and that faith "comes" through hearing the preached word. Many attempt to make faith a work of man, but that it is not. Faith comes from God through the hearing of the word. That word enables a person to hear the gospel, and believe in it so as to be saved. Biblical faith brings an end to man and causes him to come to a place where all that he has left is to trust God.

The doctrines of Rome never bring one to this point of emptiness and abandon. Instead, it says, "Ok, you believe these things, now get baptized, get confirmed, received eucharist, do this, do that, etc." Part of this is due to the fact that Rome doesn't teach righteousness is imputed to one on the basis of faith. In fact, the idea of a "passive righteousness" that comes as a gift of God is entirely foreign to their theology. Rather, to them righteousness is something you earn. And if you don't earn enough in this life through your own good deeds and devotion to the sacraments, you'll earn while in purgatory as you there purged of your unrighteousness and made fit for eternity.

Quote:

You know.. I think that as many Evangelicals think that they say they are saved by works of the Law they also believe Evangelicals think they can be saved and have no works at all. And, for some good reason since that is what some Evangelicals teach and some more self deceivingly so.



The evangelical position is that because you are saved, you will live a transformed life that results in bearing fruit and works for God. No doubt, many have perverted this to be a million other things, which make it sound as if the evangelical position is simply a distant cousin to Catholicism. But if the evangelical position is rightly understood, one will see there is no relationship between the two whatsoever.


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Jimmy H

 2009/10/2 23:16Profile
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 Re:

Appolus,

maybe for some of the reasons people have nicknames. One thing though is I do not want to be eternalized on the internet if I can help it. I know that I am prone to change and am growing. I am not sure I want to be youtube'd one day and slammed for things I no longer hold to ect.

I am not sure that I can say any real Christian could kill anyone for those purposes therefore I am not sure how much I receive any of it or them.

That is interesting what you said of Teresa can you explain or document?

As for the religious men enduring hardship well I have a hard time receiving that. I think maybe you are a bit extreme on the non salvation of Catholics. I am not sure at this point, but I cannot that easily throw it out. I know what Paul said, but it would be hard to see a man imprisoned for saying that He loves Christ. I mean many of Pauls enemies were those for money and he proved himself by carrying the marks of the Lord Jesus so... Yet, I guess Muslims and JW's have suffered in prison hmm..

I know about James I agree.

Guyon I think she held to the Church I read a bio, but that doesn't really mean all that much.

The 1,600 years thing is a big point.

I can see the expertly conveyed thing.

As for the justification thing I am not sure you read what I said. I believe they are saying that they are justified after baptism, but that they have to continue in faith just like Evangelicals who believe you can lose your salvation. All the rest of the works are not for salvation, but will be dealt with in purgatory. Not, that I am agreeing but it would seem that your view might not be right on and ect.


 2009/10/2 23:17Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
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 Re:

And while we are on the topic, I wrote a little essay some time ago on the issue of justification by faith, and how it is ultimately a life and death issue. If you have time, consider:

http://www.iamadisciple.com/articles/justification_by_faith.php


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Jimmy H

 2009/10/2 23:20Profile









 Re:

Hi ,

"Guyon I think she held to the Church I read a bio, but that doesn't really mean all that much."

Not true, she gave a defence of Christianity to the King of France himself and found herself in the Bastille. I have read most of her books and they are all about an intimate relationship with Christ. You can find, by googling, much information on Mother Teresa's letter to her confessors over 66 years. Here is an interesting article http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1655415,00.html

Teresa can barely believe in a God at all. This is not to be confused with "dark nights of the soul," this was the womans state and she admits it. She also admits that there was a public persona that bore no resemblence to her inner state, I believe her when she writes this.

On another note, the parish Priest of the parish that I grew up in used to come to our apartment every Friday night for a long time. He was supposedly coming to see my dad, who was a Catholic, but all good alcoholics were to be found in the pub on a Friday night. No, he came to see my mom who had "found," Jesus. This was quite a rare thing in my Scottish community. He was facinated by this little woman who actually claimed to know the Lord and speak to Him and He would speak to her. One night he confessed to my mother one of the greatest burdens of his soul. He said that, many years before, a woman knocked on the door of the Parsonish at about midnight. The woman was dying and quite near death yet somehow she had managed to get herself ready and get to the door of the church. Her problem? She was terrified of death and where she would go. Now, what was this Parish Priest's burden? He had to send her away, he had no answers for her and it haunted him. The Catholic church has no answer for the crisis of the soul. The answer alone lies in Jesus. Not the Sacrament, the communion, the piece of bread, but the real Jesus who is alive and stands and knocks at the door of our hearts. When one has a real relationship with Jesus, then death holds no fears for we know that to be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord. That is a glorious thing to those who "know," Him..........Frank

 2009/10/3 1:22





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