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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Need some advice!!

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Greenlea
Member



Joined: 2008/11/5
Posts: 28


 Need some advice!!

Quick History. My family has for a long time been caught up in the faith (healing/wealth) movement. At times going from place to place to seek out prophets to hear a 'word from the Lord'. My husband calls it 'prophet chasing'.

Fast Forward. Recently my sister informed my mom that "the Lord" told her, that she was to be married to a guy, that my mom and dad has yet to meet, in July. Unfortunately the day came and went, so that never happened. She is now saying that it will still happen, she just doesn't know when.

Since that time she has gotten my mother almost totally convinced that when she says the "Lord says" it really is the Lord. To the point that when she told my mother the Lord had shown her that she was going to get pregnant and have twins (she is not married and already has two kids out of wedlock) my mother was afraid to say much against her because she didn't want to the Lord to 'punish her for speaking against Him'.

I know that this may sound really strange, because I am having a hard time dealing with it myself.

The reason I am asking for advice is that today I found out that she and my sister visited W.V. Grant's church in Dallas. If you have never heard of him, do a google search, you may be surprised.

They also attended a church revival last week and the minister told everyone to bring bottles of water and he would pray over it and that the Lord would bless and heal those people who drank the water. My sister took a whole case and has proceeded to pass it around to the people in the family. (Without letting them know it is the "blessed water")

I have tried to talk to my mom but, whenever I do her response is in the line of, "Well, I don't know. I'm just trying to follow the Lord." My mom told me today that W.V. Grant prophesied to her in the service about things that she knew he could not have known and that he knew her name even though she had never met this man before. Needless to say she was convinced.

When I tried talking to my sister she told me that I (and another sister) were jealous of her and God was about to bless her with a wealthy husband because a prophet had prophesied this to her and told her that I (and my sister) just didn't want her to be happy.

I have talked to my dad and one of my brothers about the situation and although they see the problem and have spoken to my mom and sister about it, usually my sister has a way of convincing my mom that they are not "spiritual enough" and she has heard "from the Lord."

The other sister I mentioned has, along with myself, tried to talk to my mother about the situation also. Although this sister is still on the fringes of the movement herself and 'does see problems' with the control my sister has over my mom, I don't think she actually realizes the danger of what is happening.

Does anyone have any advice as to what I could do to try and bring my mother and sister out of this situation? I truly believe my mom is a Christian, although she is caught up in gross error and deceived by my sister.

Has anyone else here experienced the same problem? If nothing else please pray for me and my family that the Lord will open blind eyes and allow them to see the truth of the scriptures.

Dee

 2009/9/22 2:39Profile
anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re: Need some advice!!

Hi,

though I cant say a lot I will try and say what little I think I can.

I do not know that much about this mans ministry. I do not want to say anything assuredly. It would take some time for me to research on him fairly. It does seem that from what you tell me and the fact that he seems to be tied into the whole televangelist thing that there is a good chance that he is in error.

Here is what I want to say. Recently I have been dealing with some of the same things. Me being involved with a certain ministry and having a hard time with the prophetic words and them being problematic in my lifes decisions. I have been seeking God and just have to rest in that if my heart is right that God will show me what is true.

I guess you would just want to study all you can and find if there were any major errors and then expose them by scriptures and share that with you family.

However, with the whole prophetic thing that can be harder. But, if a prophetic word is unbiblical then there is your proof.

Sometimes we deal too much with the problem then the person. we often deal with the fruit instead of the root. A person may have a problem but the reason they have it is not because the truth is not clear but because of some fault in their personality that has caused bias. So, maybe your sister is not mature in God or following God rightly in her heart and so comes to this error. So often she just needs to grow overrall and then there will be change in this area as a fruit.

I believe that we should not make big decisions on seeming small words from God. I mean if we just have a feeling we ought to be careful before making big decisions.

So, if you mother or someone feels she has to listen to this word or be in trouble then she should have a reason to believe it. The prophets and the apostles always showed proof that they were indeed sent from God. If in the case of your mother actually witnessing a miracle like her name being told well I would first test it to make sure there was no way he could know her name or that he was not just talking to a group of people and got lucky that one in that group had the name ect.

Then there is also what many will tell you that many psychics have many powers as well. I believe like the demon possessed women that followed Paul around and kept saying that they were men of God til Paul rebuked the demon. I would say one way to gauge this is to check out his overrall ministry and fruit. If that is bad then show it to be bad and therefore discredit any supernatural ministry. On the other hand you do not want to be legalistic and judge unrighteously but if he truly has bad fruit then go for it.

I have had some personal hard times with all this and so can empathize with you. As for the prophet chaser thing. I once heard someone preach against that and believed it. I thought over it though and people did look around for Jesus and try to get to Him. So to some degree it is Biblical. There are of course though errors and extremes.

I think another thing though is if she doesnt listen to you or 2 of you then take her before a Church or an elder or something. It is a hard matter be prayerful and test things well and deep for the enemy is subtle and slippery. With the thing that I had to deal with I had to study hard. Sometimes it can even look all good on the outside but they hide things because they know it will offend people or they are kind of somewhat hiddenly affiliated with other ministries that are in error and so shows a little about them.

So, I would try to rely on God's word objectively but if God spoke to me subjectively I would follow that but only if it were clear because I do not think God wants to make us vulnerable but wants to make His paths clear.

At the end of the day you can earnestly contend for them but you shouldnt fret because there are some things you cannot change and people have to make their own choices.

 2009/9/22 3:24Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

I have brought this up before on the board, and people don't really like it, but it is applicable to this situation.

Simply examine the Scriptures and find a single instance of God "speaking" to someone in a way that wasn't audible or visual. I still haven't found a single explicit reference to God speaking to someone in their thoughts. If you come to the same conclusion, point it out to someone in your family.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/9/22 7:20Profile
elharris
Member



Joined: 2009/8/10
Posts: 59


 Re: Need some advice!!

Hi,

I understand you concern, and I have some scriptures that you should take a look at.

First of all, you need to know one of the ways in which the things written in the Old Testament apply in this day and time. Because there are many truths there regarding false prophets.



Rom 15:4
[b]For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning,[/b] that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

And


1 Cor 10: 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 [b] these things were our examples,[/b] the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
Exod 32:6

8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

9
Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

11 [b]Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: AND THEY ARE WRITTEN FOR OUR ADMONITION,(warning)upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.[/b]

13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

14 [b]Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.[/b]



It is the covetousness that these men practice and teach that is idolatry.



Now many quote the verses regarding if a thing comes to pass it is of the Lord, but there is another set of verses very similar, showing that even if something comes to pass it is not of the Lord.




Deut. Chapter 13

1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
Mark 13:22

2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;



(The other god they serve today is "mammon".)



3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams:[b] for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.[/b]



(God is proving all of us, by allowing these men to preach these things, without falling down dead in the pulpits. Your mother and sister need to know, that God allows false teachers and prophets to PROVE THEM.)



4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

9
But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.


Now of course we don't stone people in this day and time. And these things as you saw were done to them, but ARE WRITTEN TO WARN US, that we should not do as the did.



Now remember that in these end times, there will be another gospel, another spirit and another Jesus. And the truth is that most of these men worship mammon and turn God's house into a house of mechandise.



1 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4 [b]For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.[/b]



And again in Galatians, that there will be "another gospel", which at face value does not "seem" to people like another gospel.



Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


And:



2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3[b] And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.[/b]




The ministries of these men are soley based on covetousness and worshiping mammon or material goods and wealth.

The fact is that we are warned in these last days, that this will be the state of things.



Jer 9:4 [b]Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbour will walk with slanders.[/b]



Even the most sincere in this day and time, have been deceived in one area or another. We have after all inheriied a corrupt church system and 2000 years of idolatrous theology, that corrupts and turns us from the truth. But God is faithful, to those who have a love of the truth, to eventually if they keep their head in the word, lead them out of Babylon, the harlot church.


Why do these things happen? Why do people follow lies? First of course because there are no good shepards, and secondly because they want to. Anyone who truly is called and hears his voice will eventually come out of deception. The Lord allows these things to prove our hearts. Again my sheep hear my voice, and the voice of a stranger they will not follow.


However how can they hear his voice if no one is speaking for him? Now we have the wittness of the Word, but they deceive and corrupt the hearts of the simple and "silly women".



2 Tim 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6[b] For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,[/b]

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.



You sister is led away because of her own sin, her own lust to want a "rich husband". I mean why not just a "godly husband", why a "rich husband"? Because this is what these men teach, that God wants you to be rich. But what does the Word say?



1 Tim 6:7
For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

9[b] But they that will be rich[/b] fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

10 [b]For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith,[/b] and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

11 [b]But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.[/b]



How can they hear the truth without someone to tell them. Obviously God wants you to take a stand. Here is a word from the Lord for you.



Eze 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

18 [b]When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.[/b]

19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.




It's these words, meaning all the scriptures that I have shared with you here, that are "a word from a prophet", that your mother, your sister and you need to take heed to.


God has obviously made YOU the watchment on the wall. The question is what will you do?


So what about this so called prophet in Dallas?

OK. How about a 16 month prison term for Tax Evasion. Taking $100,000.00 from Church money to buy a house.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general646.html



Now he says Jesus and the apostles were in prison, but NOT for Tax evasion, but for preacing another belief in a "Theocracy". And what does the real "word from the Lord" say? Give no appearance of evil. And it would be good for you to look up the qualifications of Church leaders in Timothy and Titus, that they were to have a "good report" of them that were without, meaning unbelievers, so that they did not shame God and his gospel. And that they were to be BLAMElESS.



Here is a "Word from the Lord for them", on that regards.



1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

15[b] But let none of you suffer as a murderer, OR AS A THIEF, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.[/b]

16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.



He definately was not "suffering as a Christian", but for not rendering unto Washington's what was Washingtons. Hence he was suffering NOT for Christ, but as a THIEF.


But these guys can follow the tax laws, and still be an abomination to God's laws. Just because someone follows the "laws" of the U.S. does not make them right on with God's Word. After all it's legal to make and buy pronography and book on witchcraft, so they can we do that too?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1cwzp75MMw&feature=related



But here is the problem, and I always say, that you can't have a leader without followers. The main problem is not the leaders, the main problem is the "followers".



Jer. 5:23
[b] But this people hath a revolting and a rebellious heart; they are revolted and gone.[/b]

24 Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the LORD our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in his season: he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks of the harvest.

25 [b]Your iniquities have turned away these things, and your sins have withholden good things from you.[/b]

26 For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men.

27 As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.

28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.

29 Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?

30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;

Jer 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?


This prohecy was for THIS TIME!


The FACT is that most of the people who support these ministers have never come to repentance. No good thing will God withhold from them that love him. But instead of loving God, by learning and obeying the gospel of his son, they have a false prosperity gospel. It's easier to believe and follow these guys than to truly follow Jesus christ.

You must speak and stand on the Word and speak and show these scriptures to you mother and sister. Then you have done your part and all you can do is stand yourself, and pray that God will be merciful to them and give them repentance to the acknowledgement of the truth.


Regards,
El Harris

 2009/9/22 7:50Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1962
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Need some advice!!

Dee,

Your sister sounds like a babe in Christ who has been deceived. I am not sure that there is any sure-fire way that you can use to try to bring them out. Love them, rely on the Holy Spirit to give you words to say and tell you when it is time to say them. Then, speak the truth in love. Be there to restore them when what they have believed to be the word of the Lord winds up being just the words of man and they are disappointed and let down.

As to the question of the prophetic, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I have had quite a bit of experience with the prophetic, both real, and false. Where I have seen the flaky and the bizarre has been where I have seen an accompanying lack of solid teaching and foundation in the Word of God. Where I have seen the genuine, I have always seen seasoned and mature Christians whose lives demonstrate a close walk with God and a reverence for His word. Simply judging from what you have said, it sounds like she lacks maturity and has a wrong view of the role of prophecy. In my experience, prophecy is typically not directive but rather serves as confirmation of what God has already been speaking or doing in the life of the believer and is always in full submission to the sound doctrine of the Word of God.

I am praying right now for the light of truth to shine in the heart and mind of your sister and mother.

Travis


_________________
Travis

 2009/9/22 17:54Profile









 Re: Need some advice!!

DEE: Keep praying, and exhibit your love for your sister and mother, for I assure you, there is a crash coming. It is not a matter of if, but when. It seems that their heart is hardened now, but maybe you could be there for them when they're broken, for these prophesies are obviously fantasies in the name of the Lord.


Keep praying, and try not to be too judgemental, in order to keep an open door to minister to them, and to comfort them, when this happens. Love covers a multitude of sins.





 2009/9/22 18:58
Greenlea
Member



Joined: 2008/11/5
Posts: 28


 Re: Need some advice

Thank you everyone for your advice. It really gave me a lot to consider and many scriptures that I had already discussed with my brother and dad.

I will continue to pray over this situation. It has been going on for some time and it grieves my heart because of the misuse of God's word.

El and Travis, thank you for your words. I printed them out to review over again and share with my dh.

You are so right, my sister is in error and I have thought the same about her being decieved.

Brotherton, I agree that a crash is coming. I am asking for God's grace through it all.

I appreciate it. Thanks for the prayers, I need them.


Dee

 2009/9/23 1:35Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4488


 Re:

Hi Greenlea...

I will be praying for you and your family.

I think that there are MANY false prophets out there (including people who wholeheartedly [i]think[/i] that they are prophets...want to be seen as prophets...but are not). I think that the vast amount of often well-meaning impostors out there serve to actually dilute the openness of many to hear a [u]real[/u] word from God.

One of my undergraduate college professors wrote a book that might be helpful to your mom. Dr. Bill Alnor wrote a book entitled [url=http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Cant-Wait-Survey-Alleged/dp/080105284X/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_4/191-7564041-6537040]HEAVEN CAN'T WAIT[/url], which discusses many of the claims to have seen and experienced the supernatural. While the book's central theme focuses on those well-known ministers who falsely claim to have had visions of Heaven, the book also examines some of the apparent "words" and "prophesies" given by many of these men and women that were proven to be false. This sort of expose might encourage your mom and sister to "test everything" as written in I Thessalonians 5:21.

Again, we will be praying for you and your family.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2009/9/23 15:14Profile





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