| Poster | Thread | Logic
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JCGarc55 wrote:
The trouble I have with this type of thinking is that I have never encountered a sinless Christian or Saint in my years serving God.
That does not mean that Christians are sinners. It only means that we may sin every once in a while. We never have to sin though.
Sin should be very infrequently; far & few in between.
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Yes, we are Saints through the blood of Jesus but each of us daily deals with sin so in fact we are still sinners at times.
Hopefully not dealing daily with your own sin.
Maybe daily with temptation.
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As we get convicted, we daily cry out to Him and provides the Victory but none of us have arrived at sinless perfection.
sinless perfection does not mean that it is impossible to sin, but possible to never sin.
"say Christians are nor sinless, they just sin less. Well, I got news for you; if you're a Christian, you don't sin! You've got victory over sin! The Lord Jesus Christ came to purify us unto holiness and nothing but purity will satisfy Him!" (LEONARD RAVENHILL)
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I recently quoted these verses in another topic but the story of the two men who went up to the temple in Luke 18:9-14 comes to mind again.
A Pharisee, and the other a tax collector.
Niether of them were saved, they were both sinners.
But the Tax collector became saved and stopped employing himself in sin & stopped loving sin and habitually doing it.
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I'd rather keep in mind that I am a sinner in need of his mercy every day then to be seeing myself as a Saint. Also, the more I know Him the more I see how short I fall and the more work that needs to be done in me.
[b]1Peter 4:18[/b] [color=990000] And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?[/color] Are you still a sinner?
If the righteous scarcely be saved, you surely will not be.
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I tend to agree with my pastor here below as far as our continuing struggle with sin and the sanctification process:
You may struggle with temptation, but stop calling your self a sinner.
That main this thread is about calling yourself a sinner.
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Each of us if we are honest realize we are a work in progress. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's okay to sin. Just that when we call ourselves Saints we need to remember it's only by the Blood of Jesus and the work of His Holy Spirit.
Amen!
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My last point: I'm not saying all of you here that consider yourselves Saints do this, but I know of some that see the message of the Cross as just for the unsaved. Basically like the Cross is just the door into the Christian life. In Colossians 2:6 it says "Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him". That tells me that we need to remember how we received Him. We received Him in humility and acknowledgement that we are sinners in need of a Savior.
We [b]WERE[/b] sinners which are still in need of a Savior |
|  2009/9/23 10:27 | Profile | JCGarc55
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Paul is speaking as in a pre-salvation state.
I had a feeling you probably believed that way. My convictions are more along the lines of David Wilkerson. Have you read "Two of Me"? Specifically chapter 6:
[b] I love to do God's will so far as my new nature is concerned; but there is something else deep within me, in my lower nature, that is at war in my mind and wins the fight and enslaves me again to the sin still in me. ...In my mind I want to be God's willing servant but instead I FIND MYSELF STILL ENSLAVED WITH SIN (Romans 7:22-25 Living Bible). Paul wasn't talking about an experience before accepting Christ--because He states, "I love to do God's will." He also speaks of his "new life" that tells him to do right. That is not the testimony of a sinner. Paul, at one time, fought this battle after his conversion, and he opened to us his inner struggle. It has been the personal battle of all honest Christians.[/b]
As for 1 Timothy 1:15, I've always believed that Paul was acknowledging what he is outside of the redeeming work of Christ and also sharing how God has saved him as an example of His mercy. By the way, I agree of course that he is no longer practicing the sins mentioned in that chapter.
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| | 2009/9/23 15:47 | Profile | roaringlamb
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But the Tax collector became saved and stopped employing himself in sin & stopped loving sin and habitually doing it.
Brother how do you know that? It is nowhere in the text. For all we know, he could have gone back to being a tax collector, a justified tax collector, but a tax collector none the less.
I think you're reading into the text something that is not there, it just says that he went to his house justified.
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patrick heaviside
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| | 2009/9/23 15:51 | Profile | Logic
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JCGarc55 wrote:Quote:
Paul is speaking as in a pre-salvation state.
I had a feeling you probably believed that way.
My convictions are more along the lines of David Wilkerson. Have you read "Two of Me"? Specifically chapter 6:
Romans 6 tells us that we are free from the bondage of sin because we have "freed from sin" as our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed; For he that is dead is freed from sin.(Romans 6:6-8)
because we have "freed from sin" as our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed; For he that is dead is freed from sin.(Romans 6:6-8)
[color=990000]Let not sin therefore[/color] (be in bondage under the) [color=990000]reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.[/color] (Romans 6:12-13)
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I love to do God's will so far as my new nature is concerned; but there is something else deep within me, in my lower nature, that is at war in my mind and wins the fight and enslaves me again to the sin still in me. ...In my mind I want to be God's willing servant but instead I FIND MYSELF STILL ENSLAVED WITH SIN (Romans 7:22-25 Living Bible).
Try using a better paraphrase:
22 For I delight in the requirements of God according to my true self.
23 But now, I see different requirement, and it is in my body parts (flesh), warring against the standard of my moral conscience, and bringing me into captivity to those requirements of my own fleshly desires which are in my body parts (flesh).
24 "O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
25 With the mind, which is my actual being, I truly agree to the righteous requirements of the Law of God, and with the flesh, I serve the requirements of my own fleshly desires, which is death.
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Paul wasn't talking about an experience before accepting Christ--because He states, "I love to do God's will." He also speaks of his "new life" that tells him to do right.
[b]Rom 7:5[/b] [color=990000]For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.[color]
or IOW: When we were in the flesh (not walking after the Spirit), our sympathy for our unlawful affections which the law revealed, animated our members (we acted upon those unlawful affections) to bring forth fruit unto death.
[b]Rom 7:14[/b] [color=990000]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.[/color]
Christians are not carnal & no longer sold under sin.
[b]Rom 7:15[/b] [color=990000]For that which I do I know not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.[/color]
or IOW: I don't understand what I'm doing. I habitually don't do what I prefer to do, because I habitually do what I hate.
Christians do not habitually sin.
[b]Rom 7:18[/b] [color=990000]For I know that in me[/color] (that is, in my flesh) [color=990000]dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.[/color]
Or IOW: I know that nothing of virtue is in my flesh. However, I am willing to do good (willing to have the right affections), but, I don't know how to do it.
Christians know how to perform that which is good.
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That is not the testimony of a sinner.
Sure it does.
Don't forget, Paul was a Pharisee, he loved the law and God.
[quot]Paul, at one time, fought this battle after his conversion, and he opened to us his inner struggle. It has been the personal battle of all honest Christians.
Manichaeism Theology (a form of Gnosticism) teaches that mankind is a "battleground" for good & evil: the good part is the soul, and the bad part is the body (flesh) which is composed of Earth (the Earth part is true). The soul defines the person and is incorruptible, but it is under the domination of a foreign power (of the body/flesh)
Are you in a Gnostic religion?
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As for 1 Timothy 1:15, I've always believed that Paul was acknowledging what he is outside of the redeeming work of Christ and also sharing how God has saved him as an example of His mercy. By the way, I agree of course that he is no longer practicing the sins mentioned in that chapter.
It's not just that he is no longer practicing those sins mentioned, but that he is not a sinner, otherwise he is not righteous and the law is made for him(1Tim 1:9)
The word sinner(s) is in the Scriptures 67 times, and not one is describing the righteous. How is it that you think that you are still a sinner if you are a Christian.
How do you define yourself a sinner in my opening post? |
| | 2009/9/23 18:00 | Profile | Logic
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roaringlamb wrote:Quote:
But the Tax collector became saved and stopped employing himself in sin & stopped loving sin and habitually doing it.
Brother how do you know that?
He was crying for mercy.
They who do such will not keep employed in sin & have already stopped loving sin and habitually doing it when they find freedom from sin and forgiveness.
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It is nowhere in the text. For all we know, he could have gone back to being a tax collector, a justified tax collector, but a tax collector none the less.
Then he did not stay justified; he was not sincere in his cry for mercy.
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I think you're reading into the text something that is not there, it just says that he went to his house justified.
No, he cried, "God be merciful to me a sinner"
Wanting mercy for/from what if he stayed the same?
Was he crying for mercy from his guilt of sin or from the punishment from it?
If it was from the guilt of sin, then he would stop sinning once he found that he got mercy.
If it was only from the punishment from sin, and stayed in his sin, then He still wanted to sin but not have the consequence from it.
Why are you arguing that you are still a sinner?
Just because you sin does not make you a sinner.
I can bark like a dog, but that don't make me a dog.
Only sinners love sin.
Sinners sin habitually.
Sinners practice sin
Sinners are under the dominion of sin
Sinners employ themselves in sin
When you say that your a sinner, you imply that you fall under any of these. |
| | 2009/9/23 18:13 | Profile | roaringlamb
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Then he did not stay justified; he was not sincere in his cry for mercy
But again, you are reading into the text what is not there, and this idea is at odds with Paul's words in Romans 8 where he says that those whom God justified were also glorified(all in past tense).
So which is it?
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Just because you sin does not make you a sinner. I can bark like a dog, but that don't make me a dog.
Actually yes sinning makes me a sinner. But being justified makes me right with God. My sin nature is not completely removed from me until I am glorified, however there is a new King who wars with the old tyrant.
You are right that barking won't make you a dog, but if there was some change of nature, you could be a dog. Let's go one step further, let's say you were changed into a dog, yet the human part remained. At times, you might walk on two legs because that part of your new nature wasn't matured yet. But quickly, you would realize that it was not fitting with the new nature of being a dog.
See you are overlooking the fact that the old man is still there along with the new man. If this were not so, Scripture would not say to walk according to the new man and not according to the old man, and those words are written to believers, not unsaved people who would only walk according to the old man.
Another point to remember is that there are imperatives(do this) based on indicatives(what has been done) that are used frequently throughout the Epistles and Gospels. This is important to know.
For example, I am American(indicative) therefore I must obey Federal Laws(imperative). BUT I cannot become American by obeying the Federal Law(yes I know about green cards and such, but for sake of this argument use this poor example).
I cannot become a Christian by obeying the imperatives(do this), but rather because I am a Christian(indicative) I obey(imperative).
Hope this helps
_________________
patrick heaviside
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| | 2009/9/23 18:29 | Profile | JCGarc55
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The word sinner(s) is in the Scriptures 67 times, and not one is describing the righteous. How is it that you think that you are still a sinner if you are a Christian. How do you define yourself a sinner in my opening post?
Paul's letters were written to the church right? In the letters he addresses sin so obviously the Church and His Saints sometimes fall into sin. If all of us were in a state of sainthood 24/7 after conversion, then Paul wasted a lot of time speaking on topics like immorality and legalism, etc. to the Church.. Why preach convicting messages since were all saints and each of us has done away with our flesh? ...supposedly.
Romans 7 is helpful in that it illustrates to us the struggle of trying to serve God in our flesh and Paul then points us to the victory provided through Christ. Many times I've had failures in areas of the flesh whether it be through laziness, anger and other times with trying to serve Him in my flesh. I could go on and on. I'm not just talking about being tempted either. I've acted out and sinned. Does that make me light on sin? I hope not. I don't believe a true Christian should be in bondage and I'm not in bondage by the way, but I do fall short... but I get convicted and then call on the Lord to forgive and strengthen me in that area and ask for wisdom if anything needs to be done so it does not happen again.
As to my view of myself. I consider myself a sinner called by His grace to be Holy, sanctified and yes, a Saint.
BTW- I just listened to an awesome message by Carter Conlon today. It's called "The Groanings of the Righteous". It's a beautiful message which addresses some of what we are discussing.
Lastly, I hope I'm not frustrating you. I'm trying to understand your view but it's just not confirming. I'll reread it again and prayerfully consider what you are saying. Thanks for your patience. :-) |
| | 2009/9/23 19:13 | Profile |
| | Re: | | If we are still sinning every day in word, thought, and deed, then there is no evidence that we have ever been born again or that our hearts are regenerated.
If we are still sinful after coming to Christ, as we were without Christ, then Christ is not really the Savior from sin. We cannot really say that the old has past and the new has come. We cannot really say that we are a new man. We cannot really say that all things have become new.
The difference between a sinner and a saint is this: sin. A Saint keep's God's commandments, a sinner breaks God's commandments.
The test to see whether you know God or not is whether you keep His commandments or not. That is what the Apostle John said. If we are breaking God's commandments, we are sinning and sin separates us from God. God cannot have a relationship with sinful people. God doesn't even hear the prayers of sinners.
A Christian is someone who loves God and therefore keeps His commandments. A sinner is someone who is selfish and therefore breaks God's commandments. If you are breaking the commandments of God, you are carnally minded, and you are an enemy of God.
God is angry with the wicked every day. If you are sinning you are wicked and are therefore under the anger of God.
The wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and worldly lust. If you are sinning, you are ungodly and worldly. Therefore if you are sinning, you are under the wrath of God.
I like what Leonard Ravenhill said, "If you sin every day in word, thought, and deed, you'll go to hell." And I like what David Ravenhill said, "If you sin every day in word, thought, and deed, the devil couldn't do any worse than that!"
Christians are capable of sinning. Judas did. But if a Christian sins, they forsake Christ. And if you forsake Christ you lose your salvation until you repent. If a Christian sins, they must repent or perish.
We still have a free will so we are still capable of sinning. I like what Duncan Campbell said, "You will never get to the place where it is impossible for you to sin. But you are in a place where it is possible for you not to sin." Leonard Ravenhill said the same thing. It is possible to go the rest of your life without ever sinning again! I personally plan on going all of eternity without sinning. I don't plan on ever sinning again.
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| | 2009/9/23 20:32 | | roaringlamb
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Posts: 1519
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A Saint keep's God's commandments, a sinner breaks God's commandments.
So how are YOU doing with this?
Do you love God every moment of every day with every thought? and do you love your neighbor as you love yourself(with the same attention to their needs as you pay to yours).
There is a reason why Scripture condemns those who seek to be justified by the Law, because it can't be done.
The Pharisees kept the Law, but weren't saved. Actually, they didn't even understand the fullness of what the Law meant(i.e. the need for God to save man from outside of man).
I know that Ravenhill is kind of an icon here, but that view isn't responsible to Scripture, nor is it in line with the Law and its demands.
The Law demands perfection ALL THE TIME. There is only one way to get this ad that is by faith in the One who is always faithful and who has fulfilled the Law perfectly and having that put to our account as if we really were righteous. That's the Gospel, that God in Christ has done something to be both just and the justifier of ungodly people.
_________________
patrick heaviside
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| | 2009/9/23 20:40 | Profile |
| | Re: | | I am just saying that a person who is born again has been changed. To be born again means that you used to be a sinner but now you are a Saint. You used to be disobedient but now you are obedient. You used to be unrighteous in your position and your practice, but now you are righteous in your position and your practice. Anything less than this is a false conversion.
Jesus radically saves sinners. He turns them into new men. Jesus is a real Savior from sin.
Read 1 John.
A Christian is someone who follows Jesus. Jesus lived a perfect life and He is our example. We are not following Christ while we are sinning! You cannot serve two masters. You are either sinning or you are a Christian, you are either sinning or you are following Jesus. You cannot do both at the same time.
We can obey the law of God if we want to. That is why we are accountable. The Bible says that "we keep His commandments". But that doesn't atone for our sins. We cannot be justified by the law because obedience cannot atone for disobedience. Only the shedding of innocent blood can. We need Jesus Christ, not because we couldn't obey God, but because we could obey God but we choose not to.
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| | 2009/9/23 20:54 | |
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