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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : my theory on predestination

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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Charity for both views

Re: Charity for both views

Great example and as it should be.

Quick comment on all this. Valid points abound here, throughout this thread. A thought occured to me, if we were to fully understand this, as in
the trinity, would not that make us.........God?
I guess it is natural to try and grasp these things, but to myself it doesn't seem to rank very high in the scheme of what a fallible mind is capable of. A favorite prayer of mine is "Help me to understand what I need to understand", no more, no less.

We are predestined to a freewill of bowing to His majesty.
Philippians 2:9-11

Mike


_________________
Mike Balog

 2003/9/15 8:22Profile
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Re: my theory on predestination


Sparks on Election

Whatever word you like to use, “Election, chosen, selection,” just means: “To serve God in a purpose.” It does not mean that you should be saved, and others are appointed to be lost. See the twist that has been given to this word, and how false it is?!
And we know right through their history that whenever Israel forgot, or lost sight of, and failed to fulfill their vocation to the nations, they were put under a state of suspension as to their very calling. They were in the nations for the nations, and when they made themselves an exclusive body, shut up to themselves, and despised the nations, and called the Gentiles dogs and had no dealings with them, and said we are the people, and we are the only people, God so heartily disapproved that He withdrew their vocation, and sent them into captivity.

And mark you, dear friends, the two thousand years of Israel’s history since their rejection of the Son of God is because they failed to recognize their own calling, that through Jesus Christ they could be made a blessing to all the world. They put a hedge around themselves and said, “We are the beginning, the end of everything, God is only interested in us, the other nations are doomed.” This was just the reverse of their calling, “In thy seed - and That Seed, says Paul in Galatians 3:16, is Christ - shall all nations of the earth be blessed.” And, when, instead of being a blessing, they really became a curse amongst the nations. God said, “That is enough, you have cancelled out your own vocation, your own calling, your own election. You have cancelled it out.”
So Israel for these two thousand years has been in the outer darkness with much weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth. That is how it is, is it not?! Why? Because in the Son of God, their vocation for the whole world was secured, and they rejected their own vocation when they rejected Him. That is history. And that is the meaning of “election or selected,” not to be saved as over against all others to be lost, but for a purpose, the blessing of all others, the salvation of all others who will be saved.

Now, we come to Ephesians 1:4, where “the Church was chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.” Chosen.
What for? To be a blessing! The vessel and instrument of God is to be a blessing to the whole world. Paul, in his letter to the Galatians, speaks of the Church as the “Jerusalem which is above, the mother of us all” (4:26). John, in his vision, “sees the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven” (Rev. 21:2). Paul has seen it there, the new Jerusalem, our mother. John sees the coming down of the new Jerusalem from above, our mother, and he goes on to say: “The nations shall walk in the light thereof (Rev. 21:24). So there are nations that are extra to this selected nation. And of this selected nation, says Peter again, “Y e are a chosen nation” (1 Peter 2:9). This selected nation, which is the Church, has been selected to be a light to the nations in the ages to come. “The nations shall walk in the light thereof. This is, as I see it, the true doctrine of election.

From “The Unsearchable Riches of Christ”.
T. Austin-Sparks


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Lars Widerberg

 2003/9/15 11:20Profile
VampireBite
Member



Joined: 2003/8/21
Posts: 17


 Re: All of you on Election Alone.

I just thought of something recently and i want those who beleive we are elected only and have no freewill to answer it.


Question: If God already chose who will live in heaven and who will burn in hell, Why did God want us to go Preach?

--Calling to preach--> "(Mat 28:19-20) (19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."?

please send me an answer, cause i really would like to find out how y'all see these things.

Love in Christ,

 2003/9/15 11:43Profile
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Re:


Sparks on Election

Whatever word you like to use, “Election, chosen, selection,” just means: “To serve God in a purpose.” It does not mean that you should be saved, and others are appointed to be lost. See the twist that has been given to this word, and how false it is?!
Now, we come to Ephesians 1:4, where “the Church was chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.” Chosen.
What for? To be a blessing! The vessel and instrument of God is to be a blessing to the whole world.

From “The Unsearchable Riches of Christ”.
T. Austin-Sparks


_________________
Lars Widerberg

 2003/9/15 11:49Profile
Chosen7Stone
Member



Joined: 2003/7/21
Posts: 268
FL, USA

 Re:

From a Calvinist perspective...
VampireBite, we're called to preach despite the fact that God's already chosen His children because (1) that's God's method-of-choice in calling His children and (2) it condemns those who will not be His children.
That's my uber-brief explanation. The main point is that it's for His glory. He's glorified in His righteousness, and in His mercy. That's the way He wants to do it, I'm not gonna challenge His ways. ;-)


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Mary M.

 2003/9/15 17:52Profile
VampireBite
Member



Joined: 2003/8/21
Posts: 17


 Re:

Quote:

Chosen7Stone wrote:
From a Calvinist perspective...
VampireBite, we're called to preach despite the fact that God's already chosen His children because (1) that's God's method-of-choice in calling His children and (2) it condemns those who will not be His children.
That's my uber-brief explanation. The main point is that it's for His glory. He's glorified in His righteousness, and in His mercy. That's the way He wants to do it, I'm not gonna challenge His ways. ;-)



well i can't see it condemning them, just pissing them off. and if thats the way it is God's mercy is not mercy at all.

also, you said that "that's God's method-of-choice in calling His children". does that mean he predsetined a number or actual ppl?

cause if i don't witness to John Doe and no one else does cause we have been chosen to go to heaven anyway, how does John Doe get saved?(assuming of course that John Doe is one of the 'elect')

just something to twist your spiritual thoughts around.

 2003/9/15 19:54Profile
Timandpeg
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Joined: 2003/9/14
Posts: 2


 Re:

Tell me what you believe is the proper explanation of God's foreknowledge...

 2003/9/15 23:03Profile
Timandpeg
Member



Joined: 2003/9/14
Posts: 2


 Re:

We are predestined to a freewill of bowing to His majesty.
Philippians 2:9-11

Does that make any sense? Where in the world did you get that?

 2003/9/15 23:07Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Vampire please watch your language.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2003/9/16 0:24Profile
nobody
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re: Calvin was no fool

If we choose and are not chosen then why did Christ say "I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH..." According to the Arminian he should have said "I'm hoping to build a church, just so long as all these free people will choose to cooperate with me."

Freewill is a great idea and it pleases man greatly. Unfortunately, Scripture doesn't give it much support.

How could Christ speak in parables and then explain that to some it was given to hear and others not? Then He also says that it is only those to whom He chooses to reveal the Father that will see Him.

God is loving, but also He has many other attributes to balance that with. Holiness being a big one. How can Paul say in Romans that maybe God just decided to create some for destruction so that the ones who recieve His mercy would glorify Him? He tells us not to question God's purposes because we don't yet see. Some day we will glorify God's holiness as he throws our friends and families into Hell. Imagine that turn in our miserable thinking.

Calvin was following the beliefs of many before him (Luther, Augustine, etc.) when he interpreted Scripture in a way that says the following:

None understandeth, none seek after God

God saw fit to retain a remnant of mankind for His purposes - to worship his Son for eternity

Christ laid down His life for His sheep

Those whom He begins a good work in - He will complete that work

No one is able to pluck them from the Father's hands

Calvinism makes good sense really. Ever heard an Arminian pray for the lost? Why should he bother if the man is truly free?

How could Jesus give us all free choice but not the disciples? He chose them, not vice versa. So we are all free but the twelve? I'm gonna play Arminian here and give their strongest argument-- "That's just not fair."

I think Calvinism doesn't get the respect it deserves these days. It is not a foolish system. It was the original Reformation Theology. The Roman Catholics hated it because it was so logical and difficult to argue against. They preferred Arminianism because it was "watered down" Protestanism in their view.

I challenge you to really read some deep material on this issue. There are many good resources on the web and in print. Try MacArthur's articles on Election on the biblebb website.

 2003/9/16 8:33Profile





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