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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : my theory on predestination

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jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

InTheLight,

You are correct, that was thought provoking. However, he did not correctly represent the position of a true 5 point Calvinist who would, in fact, claim that God is the author of evil. Wayne Grudem's "Systematic Theology" (a reformed theological book) teaches this very plainly.(This would be what I'm referring to when I say hyper-calvinsism)

I did see the point in his view about how God would choose some to salvation all though one could even argue about how that would fall apart.

He probably hit it on the head the most when he gave the example of the thief. We have free choices that are tempered by the all knowing foreknowledge of God.

The only conclusions that I can come to are that clearly we are a moraly responsible creation with a free will and, equally, God is sovereign and in control of His creation.

Studying this subject just makes me think about how far above us are the ways of God.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2003/9/4 17:50Profile
VampireBite
Member



Joined: 2003/8/21
Posts: 17


 Re: The Simplicty of it all

Why don't you click here and see [url=http://66.139.79.202/sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=368&post_id=2067&order=0&viewmode=thread&pid=0&forum=36#2067]The answer I have.[/url]

 2003/9/4 20:26Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re: John Wesley encouraged tolerance of both views

Here are the last two points from a defense of Arminianism by John Wesley:

11. Away, then, with all ambiguity! Away with all expressions which only puzzle the cause! Let honest men speak out, and not play with hard words which they do not understand. And how can any man know what Arminius held, who has never read one page of his writings? Let no man bawl against Arminians, till he knows what the term means; and then he will know that Arminians and Calvinists are just upon a level. And Arminians have as much right to be angry at Calvinists, as Calvinists have to be angry at Arminians. John Calvin was a pious, learned, sensible man; and so was James Harmens(Arminius). Many Calvinists are pious, learned, sensible men; and so are many Arminians. Only the former hold absolute predestination; the latter, conditional.

12. One word more: Is it not the duty of every Arminian Preacher, First, never, in public or in private, to use the word Calvinist as a term of reproach; seeing it is neither better nor worse than calling names? -- a practice no more consistent with good sense or good manners, than it is with Christianity. Secondly. To do all that in him lies to prevent his hearers from doing it, by showing them the sin and folly of it? And is it not equally the duty of every Calvinist Preacher, First, never in public or in private, in preaching or in conversation, to use the word Arminian as a term of reproach? Secondly. To do all that in him lies to prevent his hearers from doing it, by showing them the sin and folly thereof; and that the more earnestly and diligently, if they have been accustomed so to do? perhaps encouraged therein by his own example!

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2003/9/4 21:03Profile
TaKa
Member



Joined: 2003/4/17
Posts: 124
Louisiana

 Re: My Theory on Predestination

The main objection many have to predestination I think is - If God really did choose certain people to be saved and certain people to not be saved, how is that fair?

I don't think God could be called unjust if He chooses certain people to be objects of His mercy and grace and not others. Afterall, we are all sinners and all deserving of hell.

For God to pardon certain people in Christ is not something He is obliged to do, nor is it something that sinners deserve. God is sovereign and can choose, out of all fallen mankind, who He wants to save.

His ways are higher than our ways, and the Bible says that His choosing doesn't have anything to do with us, but it's according to His own purpose - and that purpose is for Him to know and not necessarily for us to know and understand, whether we agree with that or not. God can do as He pleases and doesn't need our approval.

Some people might think that's harsh, but that's just the way it is. If we all got what we really deserved and what was really fair and just, we'd all be in hell already. So God is not being unfair when He makes a decision to save anyone, but He's being merciful that He would save anyone of us at all.

There are just some things about God that we have to accept even though we might not totally understand them. If we really love God, we will trust that whatever decisions He makes are good and right even if He chooses not to explain to us why He makes those decisions.

I believe that God desires for none to perish, but sadly because of the hardness of their own hearts, some will never accept the glorious gospel we believe.

Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely. (Revelation 22)

Whosoever means any person who chooses to may come and drink of the living water offered by Christ.

I believe that God attempts to influence everyone to choose what's right, but some have hardened their hearts, and so God has to give them over to a reprobate mind.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him. And I will raise him up in the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Notice that Jesus says no one can come to him unless the Father draws him, but then he's saying that he desires to draw ALL men unto himself.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

Peter points out that we should give diligence to make our election sure, which shows that although there is nothing we could ever do to influence God to love us any more than He already does, we still have a personal responsibility to play an active part in our spiritual development.

Rom 9:18-19 Everything depends on what God decides to do, and he can either have pity on people or make them stubborn.

Someone may ask, "How can God blame us for not obeying the gospel, if he makes us behave in the way he wants us to?"

If it was not our fault that we disobeyed the gospel, then why should we be punished for this?

Rom 9:20 But, my friend, I ask, "Who do you think you are to question God? Does the clay have the right to ask the potter why he shaped it the way he did?

I agree that salvation is all of God and has nothing to do with our own merits. Salvation is not of works and it also demonstrates God's mercy.

God didn't have to save any of us, but He did! And that's the wonder of it. Why would He be inclined to save any one of us at all? There's no good reason why any of us should be saved.

God's ways are higher than our ways, and there are just some things about God we will never fully understand no matter how long we live.


_________________
Troy

 2003/9/5 13:02Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Predestination says that God has chosen certain people for salvation (we do not know why or whom).
The people that receive this election receive grace, the people that do not receive this election receive justice.

The big problem I have with this is because of a scripture that clearly goes against this:

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God cannot desire all men to be saved and yet willfully save only some.


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Mark Nash

 2003/9/8 10:05Profile
discipleonthemove
Member



Joined: 2003/8/25
Posts: 21
East Yorkshire, England

 Re:

Quote:
Everyone who calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved.

Ro. 10 v.13

Quote:
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

2 Thess. 2 v.13

I just picked out two Scripture verses at random, that could be used to support each of the sides of the "argument" over Predestination and free choice. There are plenty more which can be piled up on both sides...no shortage of ammunition to keep the battle raging.

My understanding is (and, in principle, I'm sure most would agree) that one should not ignore verses in the Bible just because they don't support one's viewpoint. I would go further, and say that we have no right to maintain a dogmatic viewpoint over any issue where there is such obvious support for the other side of the argument, and that we impoverish ourselves by doing so. There is no benefit to be had in holding fast to one opinion if it closes me off to an appreciation of the awesome wisdom of God.

No honest Calvinist could deny the existence of Scriptures that support the Arminian argument, and vice-versa.

I cannot see a problem with reconciling the two sides.

God chooses. That is Bible Truth.

People respond and are saved. That is also Bible Truth.

I have been involved in street outreach over the years, and have seen people soundly saved as a direct result. The reason I went out on the street was to bring the gospel, as best I could, to those who don't believe. Those who respond to the message do so out of their own free choice, but could not do so without the enabling of the Holy Spirit to convict them of sin, righteousness and judgment, and of the Person of Jesus.

I do believe God chooses people, because the Bible says so, but that doesn't stop me wanting to deliver the gospel to those who need it.


Quote:
how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Ro. 10 v.14


I am glad I don't feel the need to fully understand this issue, but I do know I cannot hold to one side without accepting the other.


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Dom Spencer

 2003/9/8 17:44Profile
3John13
Member



Joined: 2003/9/13
Posts: 3
Utah

 Re:

Sorry if I post some things that have already been said. I tried to go through the old posts and can see you’ve been talking about this for a while.
I’ve been reading and writing and listening and talking about this subject for a while too.
Pardon the bold and underlines. I am most certainly not yelling. I am just pointing with my cyber finger to key passages.
Maybe I can be of some use….

[First of all… John Calvin didn’t die for my sins. Neither did James Arminius. I could care less if what I say disagrees with anything they wrote.]

I see in the Bible that everyone is headed for hell.

Romans 3
10 as it is written, "there is none righteous, not even one;
11 there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God;
12 all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one."

The question is not “Why does God chose some but exclude the rest?”
It is “Why does God choose anybody?”

Ephesians 1
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

“…according to the kind intention of His will”.
Out of the entire dregs of humanity, none of which were coming to Him or willfully “choosing Him”, He chose some out of the heap to be, not only saved, but His family.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

The next statement that’s said is, “That’s not fair.”

” The main objection many have to predestination I think is - If God really did choose certain people to be saved and certain people to not be saved, how is that fair?."

I agree.
I don’t want what’s “fair”.
Do you want what’s “fair”?
Sorry but that’s how Paul responds…

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

"I believe that God attempts to influence everyone to choose what's right, but some have hardened their hearts, and so God has to give them over to a reprobate mind.

John 6:44-45
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

I’ve usually seen people understand this as a “wooing”. An enticement of their “God shaped hole”.
Jesus isn’t really speaking of it being very subtle.

“Draw” helko {hel'-ko} Strongs #1670
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

The same word is found else where but not translated so softly…

James 2:6
But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court?

“Drag” in the NASB. Same word as John 6:44 translated “draw”.

John 21:6
And He said to them, "Cast the net on the right-hand side of the boat and you will find a catch." So they cast, and then they were not able to haul it in because of the great number of fish.

“Haul” in the NASB. Same word, helko, as John 6:44 translated “draw”.
The fish were not “wooed” into the net.

But what about…

John 12:32
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

He drags and hauls everybody to Him?
I don’t think God means everybody every time when He says “all”.
For instance…

John 6
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

He “draws” all that are given to Him.
And the ones the Father “gives” will come to Him.

But what about “Free Will”?
”God doesn’t want robots. He wants somebody that willingly chooses Him.”

I see choices in the Bible.
I even see God holding people accountable for making the wrong choices.

Acts 17
30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

But will they?
How can they?
I remind you of Romans 9.

Romans 9
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

We are accountable for our wrong choices.
And we all willingly choose wrong.

I don’t see Mans will as being all that “free”.

Romans 3
10 as it is written, "there is none righteous, not even one;
11 there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God;
12 all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one."

Man is a sinner.
He is corrupted by sin.
He is entirely corrupted. His soul, his body and his mind. (Total Depravity)
(By this I don’t mean individuals are as bad as they could be but they are tainted throughout.)

A crack addict is free to make choices too.
If given a hundred dollars what will he willingly “choose”?

He needs help.

Man is not splashing at the top of the pool desperately reaching for a life preserver that Christ is holding out. He is floating at the bottom of the pool. Two lungs full of water and unconscious.
Christ needed to plunge in and get us. Not just offer us a rescue.

Wow. This is pretty robust forum.
Look at all it allowed me to say. (Other forums cut you down to so many words.)

Again, sorry if I went over what’s already been said but I thought I might toss in some more “chapter and verse”.

 2003/9/14 17:43Profile
dpike777
Member



Joined: 2003/9/7
Posts: 17


 Re:

It is the election of His grace. What He uses for criteria in that election I know not.

But that is why He is God and not you or me.

 2003/9/14 18:11Profile
VampireBite
Member



Joined: 2003/8/21
Posts: 17


 Re: 3John13's reasoning.

what about Beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved? or the hundreds of other verse's that mention free will.

I still hold firm to my beleifs and will accept yours as yours. however, i do ask you try and be a little more open-minded to other theories for the sake of evangelism. (for instance why send us out into the world to preach to all living things, if they are saved anyway?)

well gotta go. continue to pray and medatate on His word.

 2003/9/14 22:58Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Charity for both views

The two men who could most represent the differing views on this subject are George Whitfield (predestination) and John Wesley (freewill). The two exchanged letters arguing for their view against the other for a while and it seemed like they would become enemies. But the love of Christ prevailed for these two brothers.

While they didn't work directly together, one would endorse the other's work and would recomend the other to people in the villages and towns throughout England.

They even had an agreement that the one who survived the other would preach the funeral of the one who died. George died first and John Wesley was true to his pledge. After the message a lady asked John if he would see George in Heaven to which he replied, "no." She began to fly into a rage when he finished with the statement, "I will not see him because I will not be able to get that close to the Lord's throne."

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2003/9/15 1:14Profile





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