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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : my theory on predestination

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VampireBite
Member



Joined: 2003/8/21
Posts: 17


 my theory on predestination

Hey,

my theory is simple. look at a time line.
(Past)(Present)(Future)

so God, seeing time like this, writes something down, and logically, it is then writen before the beggining. it is free will and predestined. 100% of each. same way Jesus is 100% God and Man.

:-o simple huh? :-o

 2003/8/21 21:52Profile
Zapthycat
Member



Joined: 2003/8/5
Posts: 75
Livermore, CA

 Re: my theory on predestination

Whilst God is soveriegn, and knows the beginning from the end, I do also believe that we fully have the free choice of what we do.

It's a hard thing to truly think about, after all, how could we have free choice and God total sovereinity? I don't know. But God has given us choice, that when he judges he may be just in his judgement and we can blame no one but ourselves.

As long as my lungs have breath in them our future is up the air. Only when we pass into eternity will our futures be sealed.

-JW


_________________
J. Wilson

 2003/8/22 0:54Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Perhaps this really belongs in Lounge/on the lighter side/ but as this thread is already up and running here is a question.

"Was I predestined to be an Arminian?" ;-) ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2003/8/22 2:58Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

At this hour of my understanding, here is my theory of predestination:

1. God knows all things
2. I do not know all things
3. The bible contains all things necessary for life and godliness


Ron - only calvanists are predestined ;-) ;-) ;-)


_________________
Mark Nash

 2003/9/3 6:56Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: my theory on predestination

Without a doubt, one cannot seperate predestination from God's eternal point of view of time (viewing and experiencing all moments of time at once). Could God in all His soverignty forced our hand in every instance of our life? Yes. However, just because God can do something is not the same as God doing something.

Also, if one presumes God forces our hand in everything, then one cannot dare talk about us having a loving, intimate relationship with God. Since the Scriptures and experience testify to being able to have a loving, intimate relationship with God, we must then conclude that we are not God's puppets. Puppets are incapable of love.


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Jimmy H

 2003/9/3 12:02Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re: my theory on predestination

.

Quote:
so God, seeing time like this, writes something down, and logically, it is then writen before the beggining. it is free will and predestined. 100% of each. same way Jesus is 100% God and Man



Wayne Grudem uses an example kind of like this of "freewill calvinists." He uses the example of an author writing a book. In the book a man murders someone. Now while the author wrote down the story, theoretically, the murderer still chose to do what he did. This theory falls apart though. Though the man did the deed, it was the pen of the author who orchestrated it. If played out to it's logical conclusion, there is no "free choice" here.

The question of predestination and freewill is a supreme mystery to me. I don't believe as Grudem believes that God created evil, and even causes men to sin while being blameless and not responsible for man's sin.(a position held to by hyper-calvinists)

I think God's soveriegnty lays in His foreknowledge. As in your example of a timeline, God has already seen all of history take place. And this foreknowledge is to me the greatest proof that God has allowed us a limited free choice. While He is not willing that any should perish, He has allowed us to choose this day whom we will serve.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2003/9/4 0:04Profile
discipleonthemove
Member



Joined: 2003/8/25
Posts: 21
East Yorkshire, England

 Re:

Is this a difficult question, or what?
PERHAPS.....God calls me and gives me faith because He knows how I will respond if He does so. I still could not respond or believe unless He chose me, so could not be saved, but He makes His grace available to me as necessary.
The Bible is true, and clearly teaches from BOTH angles, so there is a mystery here that embraces both Calvinism and Arminianism. We are talking about the MANIFOLD wisdom of God - it takes the whole body of Christ and MORE (i.e. God Himself!) to know the entirety of His wisdom. He chose in His wisdom to not spell it out for us, so we would be wise not to try to spell it out too much to each other. It is nevertheless a wonderful mystery, which if treated right, can increase our love for and awe of the Creator.


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Dom Spencer

 2003/9/4 11:46Profile
Chosen7Stone
Member



Joined: 2003/7/21
Posts: 268
FL, USA

 Re: my theory on predestination

I don't see how VampireBite's theory supported free will at all, or was even in-depth enough to support predestination. I think I overanalyze too much often times though. :-P
I beieve strongly in predestination, but with some tweaks. For example, we're chosen by God to go to heaven. I read Ephesians 1 and it couldn't be clearer to me. But we're given choices in other matters...
For example (and I know it's trivial, bear with me), I have a turkey sandwich and a ham sandwich sitting before me. God lets me pick my lunch, but He already knew what I was going to choose.
If we have free will in receiving Christ, then it implies risk-taking on God's behalf. The risk is in that He lays everything out before us, and we either choose Him or don't. Where there's risk, there's chance, and where there's chance, there's uncertainty. Does God have uncertainty? By no means; to say so would be to say He's not omniscient, and we KNOW He is.
So long story short, I think we have limited free will in some aspects (we choose to disobey Him at times, but He already knew we were going to), but in the matter of who'll be next to me in Heaven...God chose them before time began.


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Mary M.

 2003/9/4 14:42Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Ephesians 1, being interpreted in the light of the all scripture, I don't believe is speeking of specific individuals. Instead, Paul is glorying in the fact that God has chosen a people from the foundation of the world who would serve Him. This can be accurately interpreted to be saying that all who would repent(make a willing choice based on hearing the gospel and responding to the call of the Father's invitation) at the preaching of Christ by His servants are the ones who have been predestined.

How did He choose us? I believe it's by the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. He saw the rebellion, but He also had a way for us to repent. Those of the Arminianist position--which I am--interpret Ephesians 1 to be speaking corprately.

Quote: "If we have free will in receiving Christ, then it implies risk-taking on God's behalf. The risk is in that He lays everything out before us, and we either choose Him or don't. Where there's risk, there's chance, and where there's chance, there's uncertainty. Does God have uncertainty? By no means; to say so would be to say He's not omniscient, and we KNOW He is."

Reply: Certainly there is a chance. But what if no one chose to follow Christ? Would He have failed in His mission? Most definately not. Did He come for us or for His own sake? Jesus said that He was here to fulfill the will of His Father. He accomplished that to the uttermost ends. And if no one ever followed Him, then the cross would be our judgement instead of salvation as it will be for all who have and who will reject Christ.

I believe that God took a chance in the very beginning by giving man and apparently angels a moral choice. True expression of love *always* invlolves a risk. Only by creating us with a moral choice could we freely love God or we could rebell and therefore bring evil into the world.

You can't view God as taking a chance like we would. From our vantage point, taking a chance always involves the unkown, but not so with God, taking a chance is tempered with Him knowing the future in advance.

I cannot in good conscience think that God has arbitrarily chosen who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. I believe that He has chosen what kind of person will go to heaven and what kind will go to hell.

But as I said in an earlier post; this is a mystery.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2003/9/4 15:19Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2730
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

I found the following article on predestination, written by Greg Koukl, to be thought provoking, I hope you will enjoy it also;

[url=1] http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/theology/badargum.htm [/url]

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2003/9/4 15:54Profile





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