[b]THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GIVEN TO US BY GOD FOR MANY REASONS:[/b]

[b]A. The Spirit teaches us the deep wisdom of God.[/b]
1Co 2:6-10 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, [i]we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began[/i]. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him” — but [i]God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.[/i].

[b]B. The Spirit gives us understanding.[/b]
1Co 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, [i]that we may understand what God has freely given us.[/i]

[b]C. The Spirit gives us the words to speak.[/b]
1Co 2:13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in [i]words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[/i]

[b]D. The Spirit gives us the discernment to judge things.[/b]
1Co 2:14-15 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because [i]they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things[/i], but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment: “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?”

[b]E. The Spirit enables us to minister with different gifts.[/b]
1Co 12:4-11 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. [i]Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[/i] All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

[b]F. The Spirit gives us power to do the work of God.[/b]
Ac 1:8 [i]But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."[/i]

[b]The Spirit grants us attributes of godliness to make us effective ministers.[/b]
Gal 5:22-23 But the [i]fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control[/i]. Against such things there is no law.

[b]G. The Spirit unites us.[/b]
1Co 12:13 For we were all [i]baptized by one Spirit into one body[/i]—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free —and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

[b]H. The Spirit lives in each and everyone of us, working in each of us to do all the above (A to G).[/b]
1Co 3:16 Don’t you know that [i]you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?[/i]


[b]MY QUESTIONS ARE:[/b]

If we, as Christians, believe all the above, as written in God's Word, how is it that:

1. We choose "man-made" pastors, qualified to serve by virtue of their bible school diplomas, certificates of training, portfolio of publications, etc., rather than the basic spirituality spoken of in the bible? ([i]For example, look at the top of the SI forum's main webpage. The ad shows exactly how pastors are made today - by completing a degree[/i]). Is it still possible for a spiritual man to be elected pastor of a Christian church without a bible school degree? Or is it more likely that the bible-school-educated man will always be chosen over a simple spiritual man for a leadership position?

2. Why do we run around seeking to attend this seminar, and that conference, longing to read this book, or to listen to that sermon? Are these human resources superior to the Spirit's work?


Scripture says the Spirit lives and works in each one of us. [b]Is the Spirit's ministry in us insufficient?[/b]

I know that we can be renewed and inspired by fellow believers through their words, their writings, teachings, etc. - that is why we are encouraged by God to have fellowship. But [b]haven't we gone a bit too far, leaning too much on mere men and not enough on the Holy Spirit who dwells in us?[/b]

[b]Please share your thoughts on this.[/b]

_________________
Travis

Hi Leo.

Well, for starters:

_________________
Allan Halton

Jer 31:31-34 [i]“The time is coming,” declares the LORD, “when [u]I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers[/u] when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, ’” declares the LORD.

“[u]This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “[b]I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts.[/b][/u] I will be their God, and they will be my people. [u][b]No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother[/u], saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because [u]they will all know me[/u], from the least of them to the greatest[/b],” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”[/i]


The above passage speaks of our new covenant in Christ, and I have understood the portions in bold to mean that God (through His Spirit) intends to make himself known to each and everyone of us directly, one-on-one, without need for any intermediary.

Of course, there are men in the church who are called to be pastors and teachers, whose Spirit-given ministry is to help others into a deeper understanding of God's Word. However, I believe God intended such ministry as an aid, and not as the primary means of spiritual sustenance. It is God's intention that each believer should learn from Him directly.

However, what I see at my church (and others are probably the same way) is that many Christians are not learning to seek God directly. They depend too much on sermons, bible-reading schedules, "edifying" books and tapes, publications like "The Daily Bread", online videos, conferences, seminars, and many other well-intended "interventions" that substitute for learning directly from God. This is a weakness in the church that I feel needs to be corrected.

That is why I started this thread - to call attention to the need to depend more on the Holy Spirit, and less on mere men.

hi, who in the world is the head of this awful church we criticize so freely? Jesus... o my my... this is the same God who picked gideon while he was hiding in fear to lead his army to battle. He must know something we dont know... looks like its out of hand and we should take over in our infinite wisdom . jimp

_________________
Travis

MY QUESTIONS ARE:

If we, as Christians, believe all the above, as written in God's Word, how is it that:

1. We choose "man-made" pastors, qualified to serve by virtue of their bible school diplomas, certificates of training, portfolio of publications, etc., rather than the basic spirituality spoken of in the bible? (For example, look at the top of the SI forum's main webpage. The ad shows exactly how pastors are made today - by completing a degree). Is it still possible for a spiritual man to be elected pastor of a Christian church without a bible school degree? Or is it more likely that the bible-school-educated man will always be chosen over a simple spiritual man for a leadership position?

I'm trying to understand your question. Are you against having Pastors or just asking why do we choose a bible-educated man over a simple spiritual man for a leadership position?

First Pastors are given to us by God. Eph 4:11 says and "some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body may be built up". God gave us Pastors to equip and build up the Flock. If they were not needed why would God gift and call Pastors.

The standard for a Pastor is 1Tim 3 whether he graduates from Seminary or a Bible educated man. THat is the standard but there are many benefits to going to seminary. 2 Tim 2:15 reminds us to correctly divide the Word of Truth, men are specifically trained to do that in seminary. I do believe that Men can educate themselves and be schooled in the presence of GOd and be able to lead. in my church (a small church) there is no requirement for a degree just as long the man meets 1Tim 3 and is doctrinally sound (2Tim 2:15). I do agree with you that a degree doesn't qualify you for leadership but is a means to train and shape your knowledge of scripture and character.


2. Why do we run around seeking to attend this seminar, and that conference, longing to read this book, or to listen to that sermon? Are these human resources superior to the Spirit's work?
You answer your own argument with an obvious answer that nothing is superior to the spirit's work in one's life. No man's work is superior to the innerant Word of God.
Your concern seems to be why do we look outward when we have all that we need ie Holy Spirit and God's word. You are correct that we should seek God first and have regular personal encounters with him but we should not deprive ourselves from Men who have been greatly used by God to stir the flame already within us. I have been greatly encouraged and blessed by additional readings by Godly men but of course not close to anything I've experienced when I have been taught by God directly.

Scripture says the Spirit lives and works in each one of us. Is the Spirit's ministry in us insufficient?

Your question answers itself again. Of course the spirit's work is sufficient however your argument seems to emphasize that the church doesn't need Pastors or Elders to aid in the believers growth (correct me if I'm wrong) we just need the Holy Spirit and God's word. But to your point what if I got saved yesterday how would I understand the basic and deeper things of the Word unless I was taught. Now I do believe that the spirit can teach you things but God used Men in my life to aid my spiritual growth. Does that mean that th spirit is unsufficient?

I know that we can be renewed and inspired by fellow believers through their words, their writings, teachings, etc. - that is why we are encouraged by God to have fellowship. But haven't we gone a bit too far, leaning too much on mere men and not enough on the Holy Spirit who dwells in us?

Please share your thoughts on this.

Finally here is your whole point for your thread. Yes we have gone to far but your arguments seem to emphasize that there is no benefit in Pastors, books, seminars, etc.. You don't address the balance needed.

Dear TruthNLove,

You said: