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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
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 Re:

Here is an example of a king who leads his nation astray.

"But King Solomon loved many foreign women, as well as the daughter of Pharaoh; women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians, and Hittites, from the nations of whom the Lord had said to the children of Israel, You shall not intermarry with them, nor they with you. Surely they will turn away your hearts after their gods." Solomon clung to these in love. And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines; and his wives turned away his heart. For it was so, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned his heart after other gods; and his heart was not loyal to the Lord his God, as was the heart of his father David. For Solomon did evil in the sight of the Lord, and did not fully follow the Lord, as did his father David. Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, on the hill that is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the abomination of the people of Ammon. And he did likewise for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods. So the Lord became angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned from the Lord God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, and had commanded him concerning this thing, [b]that he should not go after other gods,[/b] but he did not keep what the Lord had commanded." 1 Kings 11:1-10

The Lord came to him twice and warned him about his unfaithfulness. Solomon rejected God. And thus a nation grew apostate because of the king.

Here is the thoughts of King Jeroboam: "If these people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of the Lord at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will turn back to their lord, Rehoboam king of Judah, and they will kill me and go back to Rehoboam king of Judah." Therefore the king asked advice, made two calves of gold, and said to the people, "It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem. Here are your gods, O Israel, which brought you up from the land of Egypt." And he set up one in Bethel, and the other he put in Dan. [b]Now this thing became sin, for the people went to worship before the one as far as Dan.[/b] He made shrines on the high places, and made priests from every class of people, who were not of the sons of Levi." 1 Kings 12:27-31

The examples found in books of Kings and Chronicles are filled with examples of the foolishness of the kings. We hear that this foolishness cause the people to sin as well. If you want to find the works of Satan read through the OT. As brother James pointed out, these are only men, our battle is spiritual. The word of God will teach us to discern between good and evil. But we must cast away the traditions of men.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/9/16 16:10Profile
ZekeO
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 Re: Traditions of Men

Quote:

But we must cast away the traditions of men.



Please excuse my ignorance if indeed it so, but what has this got to do with the whole idea of kingship?


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/9/16 16:19Profile
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 Re: Praying power

Quote:

"We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one." 1 John 5:19



That raises a a knife edge of application between a mans personally accountability for his actions and being under the sway of the evil one.

it is interesting that in Ephesians Paul says this: As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world
[b]and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.[/b] 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts.

At that time I would not have even thought that it was because of some spirit working in me that I would be disobedient. I was more like brute beast than anything, following my sinful nature. So as James was saying there is a pressure that is brought to bear upon us that will cause us to move from our position in Christ. The scripture that comes to mind is heb 6:19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. That we are able to stand in that day because we are kept by the power of God.

Some thoughts,


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/9/16 16:36Profile
rookie
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 Re:

Brother ZekeO

My point in this thread is to focus on a doctrine that many have followed probably since the days of Calvin. In that we are to obey the authorities over us because they are ordained by God to rule over us. God chooses those who rule over us. Yet does this mean that we as believers are to blindly follow those rulers? Does submitting to authority automatically place a believer in God's will? Is one who submits to the authority ordained by God declared righteous?

My argument is that this doctrine is the tradition of men. And one who submits to this doctrine is in danger of being led astray. God clearly chose Solomon to be king over Israel. Yet Solomon led the nation of Israel into sin. Brother James pointed out that the source of this evil is of satan. Man who is not born from above, is subject to the devices of Satan.

So when we pray that we might live a peaceful and godly life, we should pray that God remove the influence of Satan on the kings of the world.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/9/16 16:59Profile
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 Re: The church...the sytem of man...the sytem of Satan...

Brother Jeff

My friend (Albert) always says to me that this is man’s system. We have really discussed the life out that topic and I hope I am able to convey some of the things we have come to in our mini church (when two or more are gathered in my name). I think that this is relevant when considering what affects our leaders. To set the stage consider the following verses:

Genesis11: 1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. 4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

The collective will of man was of one accord. Before the fall of man this was desirable as man would be able to work collectively for good, but after the fall their collective will still had power, but this power was being used for evil.
The system of man has a definite hierarchy and chain of command and it works in a definite direction. Evil has its influence on this system two fold: first, there is the innate sin, which is man and secondly the kingdom of Satan, which two has a hierarchy, exerts its influence on our system. No doubt, Satan observed that the system of man was powerful and that he could use this power for his own purposes (which are debatable but not relevant at this point). He has over the years, become exceedingly efficient at his deception.

The most efficient way to influence a system is to influence the head, which is the person highest in the hierarchy. Kings pass laws and the citizens must conform…with one accord, and if that accord is that of Satan, then he has succeeded in imitating the ideal of the Church of Jesus Christ. On that point, the Church is the only efficient way of countering the works of spiritual darkness. If our efforts and prayers are fragmented then the true power is never realized. All you have to do is to look at the strongholds and how evil is propagated in collectives in gangs, bars etc. whether they know it or not they are subtly being influenced and drawn to work in one accord against all that is pure.

One of the defenses we have is to protect our leaders from evil by praying FOR them. Do you believe that the Church can be effective against this, and if so, what can we start doing now.
James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2004/9/16 17:21Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

My argument is that this doctrine is the tradition of men. And one who submits to this doctrine is in danger of being led astray.


I think that it was this doctrine that allowed many German soldiers to do what they did and feel that they were not violating Gods moral law during WW11. I do feel however that for the sake of balance I will put this scripture in :

18Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. 20But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. 1 Peter 2:18-21

So if according to moral choice you say don't agree that killing any person is right and forgo joining the military, you would in all likelyhood be treated harshly. It would be a decision based upon personal conviction. Some things you have a choice in and others are beyond your control. I also think that sometimes God allows authorities to come into power to see what his church will do. An example of this would be the church in China. Would there be such a dynamic blaze for Jesus if they hadn't experienced such persecution.

I remember hearing a story about Michael Cassidy going to see PW Botha during the 80's challenging him about the apartheid laws and the PM pulled out the bible and opened it up on Romans 13. So he certainly new where he was coming from.

I think it something where the spirit of the individual man needs to be weighed, by man I mean the followers of kings. Certainly the three in Babylon were not in submission to the the king, but before God that had set him apart as Lord. They were submitting their lives to the discretion of their ultimate master, so would Peters admonishment apply? I wouldn't think so because it wasn't disobedience based upon holding onto there own rights. It was disobedince based upon the conviction that obeying would cause be an even greater degree of disobedience. it would be disobedience against the ruler of the universe, not that of a king with a big ego. And that I believe is the line that needs to be drawn in our attitudes to those in authority.

An example would be your Presidents support of stem cell research (open to correction). He is leading the nation that way, how do you as an individual disobey that decision? Seems like there is not much you can do except vote for someone else. If the president commanded you to be involved in it, you could disobey based upon truth from the word.

Intersting topic ;-)


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/9/16 17:36Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

An example would be your Presidents support of stem cell research (open to correction). He is leading the nation that way, how do you as an individual disobey that decision? Seems like there is not much you can do except vote for someone else. If the president commanded you to be involved in it, you could disobey based upon truth from the word.



The walk of faith is not always the most practical one. I think we can learn a lot from Daniel:

Daniel6: 5 Then said these men, We shall not find any occasion against this Daniel, except we find it against him concerning the law of his God. 6 Then these presidents and princes assembled together to the king, and said thus unto him, King Darius, live for ever. 7 All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, F48 that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions. 8 Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.9 Wherefore king Darius signed the writing and the decree. 10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

As we know, he suffered persecution for his decision to serve the Lord above all other things but that is to be expected, in fact if you suffer no persecution it is proof that something is wrong with your walk. And also to be noted is that he was not harmed but the Lord protected him. As our Lord said:

John16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye SHALL have TRIBULATION: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2004/9/16 17:53Profile
rookie
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 Re:

Brother Zeke quoted:

Quote:
it is interesting that in Ephesians Paul says this: As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world
and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts.



Thankyou for this insight Zeke. This thread is not something that I have previously thought out. It grows in focus as we share.

According to Paul's teaching here, all men who are not born from above are subject to the ways of this world. And the rulers of the air hold these men in bondage. We know that Scripture warns that in the last days the kings of this earth will be under the power of Satan. We know from Scripture that past kings have been under the power of Satan. This brings to mind another thought from the book of Daniel.

Daniel had prayed that God would give him understanding of a vision that he had had. And God did send His angel and this is what he said, "Then he said to me, "Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words. [b]But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty one days; and behold Michael , one of the chief princess, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.[/b]... And now I must return to fight with the prince of Persia; and when I have gone forth, indeed the prince of Greece will come." Daniel 10:12-20.

So here we see that as Paul has pointed out in the beginning verse of this post that there is a power over the kings of earth, those who are not born from above. We also see a spiritual battle that rages all around us.

So thus far I know that I should pray to the kings salvation and also pray against the works of Satan. How esle must we pray?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/9/17 12:20Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

So thus far I know that I should pray to the kings salvation and also pray against the works of Satan. How esle must we pray?



It is easy to see now how the teaching of territorial spirits and the like gained acceptance in the church. To be aware of what is happening certainly helps us with understanding how things work, but I think the focus of any prayer is the Godhead and not the powers at work in the air. It is the proclamation of the word in prayer that causes our prayers to have power. Judson Cornwalls book ‘Praying the scriptures’ is a good guide as to how we go about praying Gods will.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/9/17 14:02Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I think the focus of any prayer is the Godhead and not the powers at work in the air



Amen and amen.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/17 14:08Profile





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