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rookie
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 1 Timothy 2:1-4

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Is there any hope for those who rule this world? Paul teaches:

"For you see your calling, brethren, that not
[b]wise[/b] according to the flesh, not many [b]mighty[/b], not many [b]noble[/b], are called, but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the [b]wise[/b], and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are [b]mighty[/b], and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, [b]that no flesh should glory in His presencel.[/b]. 1 Corinthians 1:26-29

What is Paul teaching here? Is it not that God put down those who glorify the ways of the world? Does not Paul teach that most, according to the flesh, are not called by God?

Jesus said, "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet, because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." John 15:18-19

Does not Jesus teach that if one is of the world, that person will hate the brethren? Is this not a promise of God? "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed, He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heal." Genesis 3:15

Does not Scripture teach that if one disobeys the commands of Christ he is a hater of Christ?

With this point made, Paul encourages us in 1 Timothy 1-4 to pray that the brethren may be able to live in peace and quietness, living godly lives. In "1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." Does not Paul point to the only solution for which we must pray? Is it not that the kings be born from above?

Can anyone who is of the world please God? What does Scripture say?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/9/15 16:09Profile
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 Re: 1 Timothy 2:1-4

Quote:

In "1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." Does not Paul point to the only solution for which we must pray? Is it not that the kings be born from above?



I would say off hand that the context of why he urges us to pray is so that we can have an environment in which to dwell that is condusive to peaceful living and all men being able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Quote:

Can anyone who is of the world please God? What does Scripture say?



In the context of kings, Cyrus was raised up for the very reason to let the Israelites go and build the temple. It is more that they fulfill his sovereign purpose than actually please him. Gods dealings with the Pharoah of Egypt is another example of him using a king to accomplish what he wills.

[i]The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. Proverbs 21:1
[/i]


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/9/15 16:38Profile
Jimm
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 Re: The will of God

Hey Jeff

Quote:
Can anyone who is of the world please God? What does Scripture say?

I believe that there is definitely a clear difference between those who are the elect according to the will and foreknowledge of God. Along those lines are not those who are of the world still in his will anyway? As it is written, when God spoke to Moses (elect according to God’s will):

Exodus 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

And when God spoke to Pharaoh (who was “of the world”):

Romans 9: 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

So in that context at least, it seems that people can either please God directly or indirectly. No doubt God is grieved by sin but God is also looking at the bigger picture. In other words, the war has already been won on the cross by Jesus Christ, no matter what the outcome of the battles we see everyday is.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

So with that I would say that it does not matter who is “in power” or not, for even he is serving God’s will, if only indirectly. The exhortation from Paul is to pray FOR them and not against. For all things even them work together for good.

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2004/9/15 17:19Profile
rookie
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 Re:

Brother ZekeO wrote:

Quote:
In the context of kings, Cyrus was raised up for the very reason to let the Israelites go and build the temple. It is more that they fulfill his sovereign purpose than actually please him. Gods dealings with the Pharoah of Egypt is another example of him using a king to accomplish what he wills.



And God raised up King Nebuchadnezzar to destroy Israel and many of the surrounding nations. Then God raised up Cyrus to destroy the kingdom of Babylon. What I see in Scripture is that many times God uses the kings as a means of judging the unrigtheousness of a nation. Being used by God to destroy another nation does not make the tool righteous. James 1:20, "For the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God." Even though a nation is allowed to bring about the plan of God it does not equate to that nation being righteous.

I am on a rant on this subject because I see many wanting to trust men. They crave to prove that one nation is above all others. They willingly remain blind to the evil around them. The very center of the Bible says this: "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man. It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in [b]princes.[/b] Psalm 118:8-9

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/9/15 18:16Profile
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 Re:



Paul characteristically piles words on top of each other, words describing by what manner one ought to pray for rulers. He puts dramatic focus on this task by stating that prayer is first priority, praying for the rulers is absolute priority – 1 Tim 2:1-4.
This is a task many of us dare to try to escape because of the innate enmity due to various reasons. Party politics, all kinds of hurts and distrust, various reasons for rebellion to show up and so on. The first thing praying for rulers does is changing the one praying so that he will be able to overcome bitterness and various other forms of enmity so that he or she will become able to love enemies, also political enemies, and to produce priestly prayer along the lines of the praying our high priest always presents.
This belongs to the New Testament priestliness which is ready to pray life into every situation where sin is committed – 1 John 5. Prayer is our tool to change the spiritual climate in a society by covering preaching unto conviction and conversion, establishing relations to the rulers and by living as a testimony.
Lars W.


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Lars Widerberg

 2004/9/16 1:07Profile
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 Re:

Brother Lars wrote:

Quote:
The first thing praying for rulers does is changing the one praying so that he will be able to overcome bitterness and various other forms of enmity so that he or she will become able to love enemies, also political enemies, and to produce priestly prayer along the lines of the praying our high priest always presents.



Prayer is the means of removing the products of the flesh from one's soul. Prayer is essential. And I confess that I have not sought diligently to overcome the products of the flesh in terms of praying for the rulers. Thankyou for your exhortation Lars.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/9/16 10:54Profile
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 Re:



Every blessing as you move on together with us all unto greater maturity.
We are all missing the mark as to prayer.
Lars


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Lars Widerberg

 2004/9/16 10:59Profile
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 Re:

In general response to the comments of God working out His will in believers and nonbelievers, I would like to share this thought.

As I have quoted from 1 Corinthians 1:26-29, God deliberately creates situations that cast down the wise, mighty, and noble of this world. Look to the sited story of Moses and Pharaoh. Did not God make foolish the wise, mighty, and noble Pharaoh of Egypt? Why did God do this? Scripture says that so no flesh shall glory in His presences.

King Nebuchadnezzar experienced the same treatment did he not? There are many examples given to us in Scripture that outline the foolishness of the kings of this world. We have the books of 1 and 2 Kings to glean from interms of how we as believers are to discern between good and evil. This doctrine of supporting the kings because they are appointed by God has been interpreted wrongly. This doctrine of following men who are of the world will not bring peace and godly living to those who believe. What does Jesus say?

In terms of religious leaders:

"Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me, [b]teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."[/b]
Matthew 15:7-9

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in." See Matthew 23

Do the shepherds of today dare speak out against the Pharisees?

How does Jesus view the kings?

"...What do you think Simon? From whom do the kings [b]of the earth[/b] take customs or taxes, for their sons or from strangers? Peter said to Him, "From strangers." Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free?" Matthew 17:25-26

Don't we see this timeless circumstance in the news this morning?

Jesus says: "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep [b]them from the evil one.[/b] They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Santify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. John 17:14-17

"...My kingdom is not of this world. [b]If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight,[/b] so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but, [b]now[/b] My kingdom [b]is not from here."[/b] John 18:36

So when does Scripture says that Jesus' servants will fight? Is it now? Has He come with the sound of the trumpet?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/9/16 11:32Profile
Jimm
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 Freedom to fight...my testemony

I hope you will forgive the length of this post…but felt led to share some things with you

Brother Jeff

I think I see what you are saying here. I am not quoting this to refer to any particular leader, but just to bring out one point of view:

Mathew11:12From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.

That is to say that from the time of John the Baptist we have been at war but the bigger picture is one, which you know well brothers and it is almost facetious to quote this:

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

David Ravenhill has a “must hear” sermon on spiritual warfare. He alluded to the fact that we are not fighting some town clerk, mayor, prince, or king, but that the forces of spiritual darkness will exert their influence on all those who are not in the light. On the question of fighting, if we fight against the vessel through which evil flows we are by no means affecting the evil, we must aim our efforts directly at the source, which is spiritual. We have been given authority and power over ALL the works of darkness, but whether we exercise this power entirely in our hands.

The works of evil here in the west are usually more subtle, possibly, because if they were more obvious it would awaken the great sleeping giant, the Church. There are literally more Christians in the west then anywhere else in the world. It is my opinion that the strategy is different here than it was back home in Africa, especially around the area where there were few Christians.

I have a multitude of stories I could tell you; stories of people being physically brutalized and stoned by unseen forces. People being lifted and thrown across rooms, stories of great spiritual darkness and strongholds, where whole heard of livestock disappear and human beings are lost forever; stories of mountains, which, when you point at them, a great curse falls upon you. The list is almost endless.

When I came here when of the things that struck me was how subtle the evil was here, but it is still just as powerful if not more powerful and just as binding. It appeals more to the “free will”. I myself was bound by these powers of wickedness when I fell into the pornography trap. Spiritual evil stirred up the sinful nature, which was in me already. I gradually became desensitized to the light to the point where I could be listening to a sermon and at the same time be deep in pornography….

On the surface I was fine, attending church, going to bible studies and prayer meetings, quoting scriptures, posting replies on the forum, listening only to church music; fasting for as much as three days in a row, studying the bible, praying, singing hymns; making plans to go to seminary school. All of it was useless. I was still leaning on my own strength. The outside activities could never change my heart.

It did occur to me at some point and I was convicted of my sin by the grace of God. I exchanged some PMs with brother Rahman and they began me on my road to spiritual enlightenment. Moreover, would begin to cry when I was praying and I was compelled to stop because of my guilt. I would feel like crying at almost any church sermon. In addition, I was moved to confess my sins before the church and I broke down and cried. Still I was the same man, being entangled and constantly trapped. I decided to stop the charade, I was not reading my bible anymore nor praying nor singing nor any other thing…

I was well aware that I was not filled with the spirit because of the sermons I hear on this site and the testimonies of those who where filled with the spirit…including my mother, who had been praying for me for a long time, and feeling a great force when praying for me. She arrived in America from to visit my sister and me and when she came to my house, her righteousness reflected on my corruption. She prayed for me with great fever, groaning and with tongues and laid hand on me, needles to say…I was still unchanged!

It did awaken me to the problem in my life…a distinct lack of God. My frailty was all too clear and my lack of power was never more obvious. When she returned again we had a long spiritual discussion about the state of the church and the like and my desire to go to seminary, when no clear conclusion could be reached we decided to sing some hymns and pray…I began to pray and I felt the Spirit come upon me. I was convicted and broken down to the ground and left shivering. When I got up I felt peace for the first time and I sang out to the Lord Jesus. I was no longer a slave and moreover I started to realize how trapped I truly was, and to feel a real anguish for the church. For now this story must end with an exhortation and a reminder to anyone who can relate, that God is no respecter of persons, if he did it for me, he can do it for you.

Yours in Christ

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2004/9/16 15:32Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re: Freedom to fight...my testemony

Thankyou Brother James for sharing your heart. I thankyou for also pinpointing the source of the evil and where the true battle exists. As I have asked how should we pray, you have identified clearly what we should pray for.

"We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one." 1 John 5:19

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/9/16 15:47Profile





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