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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Will You Kill or Be Killed?

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rainydaygirl
Member



Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742


 Re:

Ccrider Wrote: I don't see it quite this way in this example as you are within the law regardless of what you choose. Neither choosing abortion nor the life of the child is against the ordinance of the state.... but one is against the mandate of God.

____

That is true and I agree that a woman is choosing to go against Gods will in choosing to have an abortion. There is nothing compelling her to do so, but what if she lived in China, then the law would compel her to abort(if she already had a child) She would have to choose to follow God or follow the law of the land.

You also wrote: But what about those in China who are not to preach the Gospel but do so 'underground' to avoid getting caught??... for obviously they are avoiding pending punishment for violating the state law. These are gray areas for me in terms of Scripture.
____

I am not sure about this either. Many things I do not fully understand, I think it best that I just leave this and trust it all to the hands of the Lord. For me, I just can not reconcile how you can say to someone I love you with the love of Christ and then end their life? This is what I am trying to come to terms with, "Love your enemies."


with care
rdg

 2009/9/21 16:53Profile









 Re:

HI Chris, you write.....

"the most vulgar or angry with their words that are directed toward those who disagree with them."

Thats quite bizarre my friend. Could you give an example of a "vulgar word," that I have written. I have not the slightest anger about this subject at all. As for being personal, I have no idea what you are talking about Chris. This thread ia about a particular subject. So instead of some kind of back anf forward, which would be fruitless, lest get back to the subject at hand. Here is a simple enough question Chris, and a plain answer would suffice. Is it ok for a Christian to fight in a war? I say no, what say you?

Lets try and keep anything personal out of this, it never moves the debate forward Chris. I know that you have never liked the fact that I have shared that I believe Christians should not be involved in politics. And you have never forgiven me for giving a word about "President Bush," and I accpet that too. But this is a bizarre reply without quotes. To say that I am a vulgar angry man is a new low Chris, and I see it as a distraction to a very important debate..........Frank

 2009/9/21 16:55









 Re:

I will quickly way in and then i am done with convo with frank on this subject.

Frank, part of the problem is that you do not see that you have a sharp pharisee type approach that comes out right at the point counter point.
I would recommend you practice what you preach regarding non resistnace and also lighten up on your view of christians who do participate in Gov/military/police etc.

I will not be responding to you on this anymore.
I just wanted to weigh in cuz chris and a few others have a more merciful, balanced approach to this topic than you and others.

chow

 2009/9/21 17:08









 Re:

I think that the questions that RDG and ccrider raises show how complex the world can become the further we rationalize Scriptures in order to fit into societies norms. The question never stays at personal defence. If one says they would defend thmsleves personally then usually the other person ups the ante and asks what about your family, your niegbours, your community and then your country.

Oftentimes I have heard people passionately debate cell stem research and , with passion and zeal, defend the unborn life that these cell stems represent. Yet, if they were to be asked if the nuclear bombing of Japan was justified, they would say yes , because ultimately it was war and it saved many more lives. I am not sure that you can have it both ways, this is the exact same argument the world uses in order to justify research. Its a kind of situational ethics but it always comes back to, for the Christian, is killing ever justified. Some say yes, some say no and some are confused..........Frank

 2009/9/21 17:12
rainydaygirl
Member



Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742


 Re:

Leo wrote: Let us not radicalize what others are saying, please. We all agree that all government laws are subordinate to the laws of God. If people don't agree with you, it doesn't mean they have discarded God's teachings.

___

I had written a response to this and felt the Lord leading that I very much needed to come back and change what I had said. First let me say that it was not my intention to come across with any kind of attitude that because you and I disagree that you were some how discarding the teachings of the Lord.I would never attempt to judge your heart like that it is not my place. I thought I made it clear that I was talking over this topic with a small group of brethren that I meet with and that some questions came up. Some that I did not have answers to and where kind of running through my mind as I seek to understand the Lord heart on this issue. If I did not make it clear enough then I am sorry I will try again. Some of the things that I share in my previous post were questions from a sister and a brother in the Lord who were posing these thoughts for me to consider and I was just passing them along wondering what others were seeing. I had shared some of the things that Chris had posted and these questions came up through the discussion. You also said please do not radicalize what others are saying, forgive me I am not even sure how to respond to that because I don't think I know what that means. Honestly though and humbly if you felt that I was doing that then I am sorry and would ask you to forgive me. I would not ever try to put words into other peoples mouths or assume what they are thinking. For me this is not about trying to be right or convince someone that my view is correct, its about wanting to know the heart of my Lord and Savior on the matter so that I might walk out His will for my life and for those who He has given me care over.

Perhaps it will be best for me to leave this thread and just seek to find what the Lord heart is this on my own. I do not want to cause anyone to stumble so I will leave this to you. Again for any offense you feel because of my post I ask you to forgive me, it was not my heart to offend anyone.

with care
rdg

 2009/9/21 17:14Profile









 Re:

Hi thingsabove,

I have been called worse names than that, even today :) And usually by the same people that stems back to old arguments over what the role of a Christian is. I believe there are debaters and there are name callers. The modern way of debate is to attack the messenger. Yet, the topic remains and it goes right to the heart of the state of the church in the west. If we are a church without power, then we have to ask why. I believe that this particualr debate exposes why we are a church without power. And when you make a stand on a point, typically the name calling follows.............Frank

 2009/9/21 17:18
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Quote:

rainydaygirl wrote:
Leo wrote: Let us not radicalize what others are saying, please. We all agree that all government laws are subordinate to the laws of God. If people don't agree with you, it doesn't mean they have discarded God's teachings.

___

I had written a response to this and felt the Lord leading that I very much needed to come back and change what I had said. First let me say that it was not my intention to come across with any kind of attitude that because you and I disagree that you were some how discarding the teachings of the Lord.I would never attempt to judge your heart like that it is not my place. I thought I made it clear that I was talking over this topic with a small group of brethren that I meet with and that some questions came up. Some that I did not have answers to and where kind of running through my mind as I seek to understand the Lord heart on this issue. If I did not make it clear enough then I am sorry I will try again. Some of the things that I share in my previous post were questions from a sister and a brother in the Lord who were posing these thoughts for me to consider and I was just passing them along wondering what others were seeing. I had shared some of the things that Chris had posted and these questions came up through the discussion. You also said please do not radicalize what others are saying, forgive me I am not even sure how to respond to that because I don't think I know what that means. Honestly though and humbly if you felt that I was doing that then I am sorry and would ask you to forgive me. I would not ever try to put words into other peoples mouths or assume what they are thinking. For me this is not about trying to be right or convince someone that my view is correct, its about wanting to know the heart of my Lord and Savior on the matter so that I might walk out His will for my life and for those who He has given me care over.

Perhaps it will be best for me to leave this thread and just seek to find what the Lord heart is this on my own. I do not want to cause anyone to stumble so I will leave this to you. Again for any offense you feel because of my post I ask you to forgive me, it was not my heart to offend anyone.

with care
rdg



dear rdg,

It is I who should apologize for the sloppy way I made that post - it was rushed. You'll notice that there was no salutation because the post was for everyone, not for you. I quoted you as an example just to point out the word "kill" since I hoped to stress that God's command was against murder, which is different.

The rest of the post about not overreacting to those who disagree was really not for you. It was for others in this thread who have been overreacting.

It was all my fault. Again, I apologize and hope you will continue to participate.

Leo

 2009/9/21 17:55Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4502


 Re:

Hi Frank...

Quote:
HI Chris, you write.....

"the most vulgar or angry with their words that are directed toward those who disagree with them."

Thats quite bizarre my friend. Could you give an example of a "vulgar word," that I have written. I have not the slightest anger about this subject at all. As for being personal, I have no idea what you are talking about Chris. This thread ia about a particular subject.


Actually, and as "bizarre" as this might seem, this comment was not directed at YOU, Frank. It is, rather, in regard to some individuals that I have spoken with who hold to a very particular "non-resistant" position in regard to government, fighting, self-defense, military service, voting, etc...

Those individuals publicly proclaim to embrace a belief in "Christian non-resistance," yet they are the first to hurl allegations at government leaders, government workers and even those who disagree with their position. I have even been accused of "bowing my knees to the system of this dark world" by two different "non-resistance" brethren simply because of my own views about this matter that I feel are totally in compliance with the Gospel and held with a clear conscience before God. This type of rhetorical "resistance" from those individuals was quite fierce, accusatory and, well, unbecoming.
Quote:
This thread ia about a particular subject. So instead of some kind of back anf forward, which would be fruitless, lest get back to the subject at hand. Here is a simple enough question Chris, and a plain answer would suffice. Is it ok for a Christian to fight in a war? I say no, what say you?


I think that my posts WERE about this particular subject (well, until you incorrectly interpreted my intentions for posting those Scripture passages). In fact, I think that I already articulated my position in the first few threads. My point was (and still is) that, often, a plain answer does not suffice. This issue might not be so "clear cut" as some would have us believe. All of the Scriptural "proof" that I have seen in this discussion has not led me to believe that the Lord absolutely forbids defending someone else from an attacker...or from serving in the military. I understand the "turn the other cheek" passage, but even that Scripture speaks in regard to egocentric defense and NOT in regard to the defense of a wife, a child, a mother, the weak or even military service.
Quote:
Lets try and keep anything personal out of this, it never moves the debate forward Chris.

Yes, Frank, and please refrain from doing so in the future. If you want to publicly tell others the purpose of my posts (such as when you said, "[i]Chris uses Scriptural quotes in order to validate war[/i]"), you might want to ask me for clarity in order to prevent yourself from bearing false witness.
Quote:
I know that you have never liked the fact that I have shared that I believe Christians should not be involved in politics. And you have never forgiven me for giving a word about "President Bush," and I accpet that too. But this is a bizarre reply without quotes.


Ummm...what you "know" is incorrect. In fact, I think that you are completely entitled to your own personal opinion that believers should not be involved in the political process. There is nothing in that which would merit my "dislike" whatsoever. However, I don't like it when you "push" your opinion as if it were the only one that matters in these sort of discussions...or as if your opinion is actually straight from the mind of God. I know that this is probably NOT how you intend to come across. Yet, this is how it sometimes seems, brother. As for your "word" about President Bush, I took it with a grain of salt. I did offer my opinion in regard to the various things that you said, but you simply rejected it. We are, after all, told to "test everything" (I Thessalonians 5:21). Yet, really, there is nothing to "forgive." While I didn't agree with your "words" back then, but I've moved past those things.
Quote:
But this is a bizarre reply without quotes. To say that I am a vulgar angry man is a new low Chris, and I see it as a distraction to a very important debate..........Frank


Well, it is a good thing, then, that my comment was NOT directed at you. Next time, if you have questions about what I am meaning with my words, you might simply ask. I can add any clarity that might be necessary.

To borrow the old cliché, we can "agree to disagree" about this in regard to our opinions and positions about this matter. I would, however, urge that we treat everyone else as if they, too, are children of God who have prayed about this issue, studied and sought the face of God in regard to this matter. Those prayerful opinions matter too.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/9/21 19:28Profile









 Re:

Everyone here is talking about war with regards to killing, what about dying?

Does anybody here want to be the first to renounce the freedoms they live under, thanks in part to those who died at the butt end of a gun in a war on their behalf?

If you are a Christian who is not prepared to shoot a gun, you can at least go to war and be shot in place of a friend or neighbour who is not prepared to die. That is the sacrificial love of Christ actually put into action....

Any takers for that one? Probably not. Why? Because it is easy to sit back here and talk about peace in a world full of war.

 2009/9/21 19:39
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: And what shall we do?

Hi everyone.


I appologise beforehand for commenting here and not having read through the discussion except some of the first post.


I wanted to say a couple things about people's involvment in war if I could. Please only consider this as my own weak and limited understanding of this topic. I do not want to pursuade anyone to be for or against fighting in a war.



One thing that I noticed sometime ago is that several groups of people had come to John the Baptist in response to his preaching and saying to them that they must repent.


One group, Luke says, were [i]soldiers[/i]. And he says, that they asked John,


"And what shall we do?"


His first response to them, was that they 'Do violence to no man'.


Barnes' suggests that John meant that they should not take the property of others unjustly, or use unjust force against anyone.


This makes sense to me also, as he goes on to tell them to, not accuse anyone falsely, and,[i]to be content with their wages[/i].


One can hardly imagine a soldier that was expected to fight or to use force, to himself expect to recieve his wages when he refused to do so.


Well, there are other things in the scriptures that I think speak to this issue, but this has stood out to me much, in that, it was John that said it to them. The one sent to prepare the way for Christ.


For myself, I cannot imagine looking a man in the eyes that has hazarded his life and the enjoyment of his family and children in this world in order to protect my saftey, and to tell him that I despise him and what he has done.



On the other hand, I cannot also, say to a man for instance that I met one night outside of a bar, who had probably been drinking much for his own sorrows, that I despise him either, because he refused to accept my gratitude for his service to our country, because he was so distraught over the things he had done.


I cannot look at either man and say anything to him bad.


I say that we live in a world, where some things are very hard, and very difficult for us to understand.



I wish all, whether you have or have not fought to protect us, God's love and grace to you.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/9/21 19:40Profile





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