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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Will You Kill or Be Killed?

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ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Brother Lee,

Thank you for the questions that you put to me and for your patience with my responses in this thread so far.


I think that two seperate issues are in view.

One, how believers are invidually, or as a body together, to resist evil.

And what may or may not be permissable for a beleiver to participate in while acting as an agent of the State.


I personally am in full agreement with you that believers are not supposed to respond with violence or force when faced with the same, either personally, or as a body together. I'm fully persuaded that this is the way the Lord Jesus taught, as you have said also.

I'm not convinced however that they are forbidden to do so when acting as agents of the State. I believe that the many scriptures that we have looked at in this thread indicate that States are permitted the use of force by God, and that such use [b]is not necessarily[/b] evil or condemnded.


Which leads me to the question that you put forward here for us:



Quote:
How did Jesus show this authority




Except for when He showed His power against the demons, when living here upon the earth for us, as a servant, it was just as you said.


However when He came into His Kingdom, and since then, I beleive it is reasonable to think that He has at times, demonstrated His Authority, by force(Mat 22:2-7).


When He was being tried by the council, it was demanded of Him by the high priest, to say whether or not He was the Christ.

His answer to them, in part, was that thereafter, he(the high priest) would see Him, [i]sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven[/i].


The response of the priest was that he tore his clothes and cried blasphemy.

And this all calls to mind Daniel chapter 7.


It was not too much before this that the Lord Jesus had spoken the parable of the vineyard, and the husbandmen(Mat 21:33-41).

The response of the religous leaders to this was that the Lord of the Vineyard would "...miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons."


And then the Lord Jesus told them that the Kingdom of God would be taken from them, and given to a nation that would bring forth its fruit.


The Lord Jesus told the high priest that demanded of Him, whether or not that He was the Christ, that thereafter, he would "...see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."


This speaking, as I understand it, to say that He had all power, in Heaven and in Earth.


And I think if we understand the history correctly, it was seen, or demonstrated. With force. In Ad 70(Mat 22:7).


Wish you all, and thank you for the blessing of peace.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2010/1/4 20:30Profile
chapel
Member



Joined: 2009/4/24
Posts: 280


 Re:

ChrisJD wrote:

Quote:
I think that two seperate issues are in view.

One, how believers are invidually, or as a body together, to resist evil.

And what may or may not be permissable for a beleiver to participate in while acting as an agent of the State.

I personally am in full agreement with you that believers are not supposed to respond with violence or force when faced with the same, either personally, or as a body together. I'm fully persuaded that this is the way the Lord Jesus taught, as you have said also.

I'm not convinced however that they are forbidden to do so when acting as agents of the State. I believe that the many scriptures that we have looked at in this thread indicate that States are permitted the use of force by God, and that such use is not necessarily evil or condemnded.




Hi ChrisJD,

States yes, Christians no; otherwise Paul could not say this to Christians, which to me makes it clear why we cannot participate in the offices and arms of the state.

Ephes. 6:10-20
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. [11] Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. [13] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. [14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; [15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; [16] Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. [17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: [18] Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; [19] And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, [20] For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.


As I understand this: “Finally, my brethren”, I believe Paul is speaking only to Christians.

He is clearly teaching total dependence on the Lord, and the power of his might.
He then explains who our battle is with and what weapons ‘Christians’ are to use.
NONE are of the flesh; ALL are the armor of God.
He than explains that this is the ‘only way’ we are able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
He leaves no room for the flesh and only His armor will stand against the wiles of the devil.
I will add that this only applies to ‘Christians’ and not to those of the world.


We are to obey the word of God and not our emotions, which are directed to many times by the flesh.
1 Cor. 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


One question, where in the teachings of the New Testament are Christians ever told to be agents of the state? We are agents of the Lord Jesus Christ and it is made very plain, that as such we are to obey Eph. 6:10-20. We cannot split ourselves to be agents of the Lord with spiritual weapons (the whole armor of God) and then use the weapons of the flesh to be agents of the state.

There is only one evil not two separate ones.
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Just as there is only one good, not two separate ones.
Matthew 19:16-17
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

1 Cor. 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Ephes. 4:5-6
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Thus we as Christians can only do battle with the whole armor of God.

Eph. 6:10-12
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. [11] Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

For the Christian, no other weapon will stand against the wiles of the devil.
This is why in the battle of Armageddon we see all nations gathered with all the weapons of the flesh to fight against the Lord, whom He shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Rev. 19:11-21
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. [12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. [14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
[17] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; [18] That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. [19] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. [20] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. [21] And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

2 Thes. 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


May the Lord’s Love and Peace be with us all.

lee


_________________
Lee Chapel

 2010/1/5 18:09Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi brother Lee,


about this and the passage from Ephesians,





Quote:
...otherwise Paul could not say this to Christians, which to me makes it clear why we cannot participate in the offices and arms of the state.



I think we can both agree that this passage is giving instruction on how to fight the spiritual battle and to live the Christian life?


And yet, when Paul was at Ephesus, was he carnal in that he had fought with beasts(1Co 15:32)? Or did he it perhaps in the course of running his race to publish the Gospel, by some set of circumstances that we do not know?

No brother, I do not think that Paul's writting in the passage to the Ephesians is to say [b]whether or not[/b] Christians may engage in things of this world, but rather [b]how[/b] they should engage [u]everything in this world[/u]; that is by, and with, and through God, and faith in God.

For he says elsewhere,

"And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;"

- Col 3:23(KJV)

And this he had written unto servants. And would he not have written the same unto those who were called, [i]of the household of Ceasar[/i](Php 4:22)? Even if they were Ceasar's servants?

And could he not even say to them also,

"...of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ."



For did not Joseph serve the purposes of God and his brethren while in Egypt? Or Daniel the captives in Babylon? Or Nehemiah the returning exiles?

Did they not all serve God, in a foreign land?


Brother, I don't mean to say that I have the answers. But I'm not convinced that because States are of this world, that their service cannot be spiritual, if the one rendering it is.


Thank you again brother Lee,

Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2010/1/5 20:57Profile
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3157


 Re:

Doing some research on Cain and Abel, I ran across something that I think is at the heart of the matter. In Genesis 4:17, after going forth from the presence of the Lord, Cain builds a city. H. C. Leupold in [i]Exposition of Genesis[/i] writes:

"The critical objections to the idea of the building of a city at so early a date in history fall away as soon as we remember that, of necessity, nothing more could be meant than a walled enclosure with a few houses. The primitive city need have been no more. Besides, this well accords with the accursed timorousness that marked Cain. In spite of promise and sign he never felt safe. He felt a city might afford a feeling of safety, but he was never able to complete his city."

 2010/1/9 2:52Profile
chapel
Member



Joined: 2009/4/24
Posts: 280


 Re:


Brother ChrisJD,
Sorry for the long delay, I have been in the VA hospital for an over due tune-up, now I'm good for another 100k.




ChrisJD wrote:

Quote:
I think we can both agree that this passage (Eph. 6:10-20) is giving instruction on how to fight the s
piritual battle and to live the Christian life?





ChrisJD
Which is exactly what the New Covenant is all about,fighting a spiritual battle and living the Christian life, not serving the world.



ChrisJD wrote:

Quote:
And yet, when Paul was at Ephesus, was he carnal in that he had fought with beasts(1Co 15:32)? Or did he it perhaps in the course of running his race to publish the Gospel, by some set of circumstances that we do not know?







ChrisJD
Man was given authority over beast but not over one another. In fact Jesus made it very clear that we were not to be like the world but we were to be servants….
Matt. 20:25-28
Mark 10:42-45
Luke 22:25-26
And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. [26] But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

Now the teachings of Jesus, the disciples and the early church make it very clear what Jesus was talking about and it was not having dominion over others, but serving them.



ChrisJD wrote:
Quote:
No brother, I do not think that Paul's writting in the passage to the Ephesians is to say whether or not Christians may engage in things of this world, but rather how they should engage everything in this world; that is by, and with, and through God, and faith in God.

For he says elsewhere,

"And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;"

- Col 3:23(KJV)





ChrisJD
Then what you are saying is that it is ok to bypass the teachings of Jesus, Paul and the disciples as long as we do it as a Christian, heartily as to the Lord and not unto man.

Which means I can join together with many heathens of the state; drop bombs, call in artillery, lob grenades and fire my rifle; killing men, women, and children in the name of the state; as long as I do so as a Christian and do it heartily unto the Lord and not unto man.

I’m sorry ChrisJD but that seems to be rather absurd.

What you have stated does not seem to match the teachings of Jesus, Peter, James, Paul or any of the other disciples, or for that matter the teachings of the early church.

Matthew 5:2-12
And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, [3] Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [4] Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. [5] Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. [6] Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. [7] Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. [8] Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. [9] Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. [10] Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [11] Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. [12] Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 5:13-16
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. [14] Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. [15] Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. [16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 5:43-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Luke 6:27-32
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, [28] Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. [29] And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. [30] Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. [31] And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. [32] For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

Luke 9:54-56
And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? [55] But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. [56] For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

He did not come to destroy men’s lives and as Christians neither are we. He is the Christians example to follow not the state. Men hate us because we are not of the world;
But instead they love many who claim to be Christian because there is little or no
difference from them and the world.

John 15:17-20
These things I command you, that ye love one another. [18] If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. [19] If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. [20] Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.


Luke 10:25-37
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? [26] He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? [27] And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. [28] And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. [29] But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? [30] And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. [31] And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. [32] And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. [33] But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, [34] And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. [35] And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. [36] Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? [37] And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.


Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

We are called to teach and lead others to Jesus and to obey all things he commanded. Not to be strong arms for the state.

Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

2 Cor. 10:3-4
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: [4] (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

Romans 12:17-21
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. [18] If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. [19] Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. [20] Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Col. 3:12-13
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; [13] Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

1 Thes. 5:15
See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

2 Tim. 2:24-26
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, [25] In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; [26] And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Titus 3:1-2
Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, [2] To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

James 4:1-4
From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? [2] Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. [3] Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. [4] Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

1 Peter 2:21-25
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: [22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: [23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: [24] Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. [25] For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

1 Peter 3:8-18
Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: [9] Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. [10] For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: [11] Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. [12] For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
[13] And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? [14] But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; [15] But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: [16] Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. [17] For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. [18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 4:1-2
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; [2] That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1 John 2:15-17
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. [16] For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. [17] And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Galatians 5:16-17
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. [17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Galatians 5:22-25
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. [25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

How can we live and walk in the Spirit and ignore all these teachings of Jesus, Paul and the other disciples?

James 3:17-18
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. [18] And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
This does not in any way describe the state and how it operates today. We are of the kingdom that cannot be shaken which is not earthly but resides in those who are washed by his precious blood, which speak not of earthly kingdoms but the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 12:22-29
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, [24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. [25] See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: [26] Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. [27] And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. [28] Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: [29] For our God is a consuming fire.
The day will come when we will serve our God as kings and priest, but not until He has brought forth a new heaven and earth.

Rev. 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev. 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev. 22:5
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Thus we do not serve the princesses of this world, who “come to nought”, but our Lord Jesus Christ, speaking the wisdom of God to those who will believe.

1 Cor. 2:1-7
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. [2] For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. [3] And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. [4] And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: [5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. [6] Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: [7] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

2 Cor. 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

We are called by Jesus Christ to teach all nations, not rule over them. To obey all He commanded of the disciples, which does not put forth one word instructing us to serve in positions of this world.

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Ephes. 4:1-32
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, [2] With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; [3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. [8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. [9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) [11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: [16] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
[17] This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, [18] Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: [19] Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. [20] But ye have not so learned Christ; [21] If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: [22] That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; [23] And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; [24] And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
[25] Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. [26] Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: [27] Neither give place to the devil. [28] Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. [29] Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. [30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. [31] Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: [32] And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.


If these doctrines of a Christian serving in the world are so clear and expected to be the doctrine of the church; then why are they silent in the teachings and examples of Jesus, the disciples, and the early church? Even though this question has been raised before, it has never been answered with the word of God, only with the thoughts of how men think it should be, or with the argument of silence (Jesus or the disciples never said not to) here is where personal feelings of survival get mixed in; trying to speculate what he did or did not say.

If we are depending on the one who has promised to build His Church and the gates of hell or the arm of man will not prevail against it; then we are that church; We are His people and we are more than conquerors in HIM.

No it is not the world we are to live our lives unto, but the Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus and His teachings are our example to follow.

Proverbs 3:13, 17
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
[17] Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.

May the Lord’s Love and Peace be with us all.

lee


_________________
Lee Chapel

 2010/1/24 17:12Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone.

Chapel, welcome back, and I'm gratefull for your well being.


I hope that I will be able to respond adequately and sensibly to some of the things you put forward. For my part, I'm not much interested in continuing in this discussion much further. I had returned to this thread after I saw it continue, in part because I felt that some of the things being presented were not fair to others that hold a differing view on this subject. But were declaring them to be unbelievers.


Speaking about Ephesians chapter 6, we were saying,


Quote:
Which is exactly what the New Covenant is all about,fighting a spiritual battle and living the Christian life, not serving the world.



[i]...not serving the world[/i]



But the Christian life is lived [b]in this world[/b] and among the people of this world(Mat 5:13, 1Co 5:9-11). Are we saying that if we serve anyone or anything else but Christians or the Christian Church that we are no longer serving God?

But then why would we ever feed or clothe those who consider us an enemy?






Quote:
Man was given authority over beast but not over one another.




But doesn't Paul say that all authority comes from God? And hasn't God given His authority to men on the Earth?


And wasn't the Lord Jesus set under authority while on the Earth? Wasn't that the observation of the centurion who asked(EDIT changed the word sent to asked) for the Lord Jesus to heal his servant(Luke 7:1-9)?


I don't believe that authority in and of itself is evil or wrong. But how it is used can be evil and wrong, and this I think is brought out in what you shared further:


Quote:
In fact Jesus made it very clear that we were not to be like the world but we were to be servants….

Matt. 20:25-28
Mark 10:42-45
Luke 22:25-26
And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. [26] But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

Now the teachings of Jesus, the disciples and the early church make it very clear what Jesus was talking about and it was not having dominion over others, but serving them.




[i]...what Jesus was talking about and it was not having dominion over others, but serving them.[/i]


I'm not sure this is exactly how it reads though brother?

The Lord doesn't say there shall be [b]none great among you[/b], or [b]none that are chief[/b], does He?

But, to the one [b]that is great among you[/b], that he should be, how?, [i]as the younger[/i], and the one that is chief, that he should be [i]as he that serves[/i]? Even as the Lord was among them also(Luke 22:27)? But doesn't He also promise them a kingdom in the future(Luke 22:28-30)?


I mean to say that it doesn't appear to me that the Lord Jesus said that authority was wrong, but that His people were not to excercise it among themselves the same way that the unbelievers do.

I think this is much the same way that Paul the Apostle used his authority that he had been given by God(2Co 10:8, 2Co 4:5).

And even how he handled his authority, when treating with other Christians, one having authority over the other, as with Onesimus, and Philemon, who Paul [i]beseeches[/i], and not rather [i]enjoins[/i](though he says he could be much bold in Christ to do so), beseeching him, not as Paul the Apostle, but Paul the Aged, to recieve his servant Onesimus back, and this time not as a servant, but as a beloved brother(Phm 1:1-25). But this he says also to Timothy, that those that have believing masters should not despise them either(1Ti 6:1-5).



But all of this is to say how Christians should treat with each other, and I do not think says whether or not Christians may have seats of authority among the people of the world. Does Paul call Erastus the chamberalin an unbeliever or evil or rebellious to Christ because he had a postion in governement?






Brother, about this:



Quote:
Then what you are saying is that it is ok to bypass the teachings of Jesus, Paul and the disciples as long as we do it as a Christian, heartily as to the Lord and not unto man.

Which means I can join together with many heathens of the state; drop bombs, call in artillery, lob grenades and fire my rifle; killing men, women, and children in the name of the state; as long as I do so as a Christian and do it heartily unto the Lord and not unto man.

I’m sorry ChrisJD but that seems to be rather absurd.

What you have stated does not seem to match the teachings of Jesus, Peter, James, Paul or any of the other disciples, or for that matter the teachings of the early church.

Matthew 5:2-12
And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, [3] Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [4] Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. [5] Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. [6] Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. [7] Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. [8] Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. [9] Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. [10] Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [11] Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. [12] Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.




But brother, even if you and I could not conscience doing those things or could not serve God that way, is it possible that others could?

Wasn't David persecuted for rightesouness sake?(Ps 7:1-5),

Was he not merciful(Ps 35:11-14)?

Did he not seek to make peace(2Sa 3:1-39)? or desire a clean heart(Ps 51:10), or see God(Ps 63:2)? or in those same things mourn? and did he not hunger and thirst for righteousness(Ps 139:23-24)?


Brother, I think it is hard for me to understand too, how if we could say that God permits men to use the sword but will condemn them for it on the last day also?

Doesn't David rather say that God would judge the sons of Zuriah, not for using the sword, as he himself had, but for using it wickedly(2Sa 3:39)?


cont...


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2010/1/25 11:33Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

cont...


Quote:
He did not come to destroy men’s lives and as Christians neither are we.




But neither are Governments set by God to destroy men's lives, but are for their good(Romans 13:4), and that does not mean there for the good of Christians only, but for all that do good. And not even for those that do good only but for the general welfare of all. As it is now, that the US Government is aiding the people of Haiti.







Quote:
He is the Christians example to follow not the state.




Yes the Lord Jesus is our example. And because it appears that before He began His ministry that He worked as a craftsman of some sort, must all believers have the same or a similar trade? But was He not born King also? Yet kingship or leadership of anykind is forbidden by anyone that would follow Him?


Quote:
Men hate us because we are not of the world; But instead they love many who claim to be Christian because there is little or no difference from them and the world.




Alright brother, but does that mean that anyone that particpates in earthly government is a compromiser and must nescessarily be loved by the world?


For some reason, Joseph was not recognised by his brethren after serving so long in Egypt, but is he remembered in the scripture as a man of faith or a man of the world? And when there arose a king that did not know Joseph the people of God were again treated hard.


Or what of Esther, though she had the favor of the king was she not hated by Haman?

Just because a man serves in government, must he compromise his integrity? Did not Daniel retain his own diet, and doesn't the scripture say it was God that had brought Daniel into favor? But was he still not hated by the Chaldeans(Dan 3:8), and though he was given a heathen name(Dan 1:7), does than mean his heart became the heart of a heathen also(Dan 9:1-23)?






Quote:
We are called by Jesus Christ to teach all nations, not rule over them. To obey all He commanded of the disciples, which does not put forth one word instructing us to serve in positions of this world.




No, the Lord Jesus doesn't give specific instructions for what sort of work each believer is supposed to do, does He?
He does not tell us each to be carpenters, or tentmakers, or whatever else. But Paul does say, that whatever we do, we should do it as unto the Lord.

Now, we would both agree that the whatever does not include anything that is evil. But so far as I can tell, the scripture does not call serving in governemtns,

evil. But they can be, ministers of God to others, for good.


Thank you for the blessing of peace also brother. May it be so.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2010/1/25 12:24Profile





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