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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Will You Kill or Be Killed?

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 Re:

Quote
Do you think that Christians killing people in war is acceptable to God? If so, then you must think God has a double standard for Christians, that He makes an exception to the rule for those who kill for a government as soldiers--who.."

Ahhh, here we go still at it eh chapel? Condeming soldiers who are christians doing their job.

I have not posted any responses on this for awhile. However since you keep persisting in this I just had to stop in and make a comment.

What you are espousing is fine for individual christians to choose to be. However when you proceed to declare that soldiers who are christians are in rebellion to God, well thats where you step to far.

Oh well, I say this for those who might be a little confused in hope that they will not enter into the judgement that you are doing.

Oh yes , I hear you now," It is not I that judge them but the scripture"

Well, it's your slant on the scripture, therefore it is you!

 2009/12/4 16:22
nasekom
Member



Joined: 2009/5/29
Posts: 146
Dublin,Ireland

 Re:

Hi.I just read a couple of posts here and i want to leave my short comment and my personal view on this subject.For decades in former USSR the only answer to that question was-no,no way!Christian can't do that.it contradicts the word of God.some Christians were actually killed and many-many sent to prisons for refusal to go to Soviet army.But they chose not to compromise but to stay faithful to their God no matter what.Did they not know what their Bibles say about it?I know personally some men who have been through that and looking at their godly lives i have great respect for them.And they do know their Bibles very well.As for me-no,i don't think Christians should become soldiers or participate in any of that sort of activity.We have a different kind of battles to fight,not the flesh and blood. Yours in Christ,nasekom.


_________________
Yuri

 2009/12/4 18:50Profile









 Re:

Quote:

nasekom wrote:
Hi.I just read a couple of posts here and i want to leave my short comment and my personal view on this subject.For decades in former USSR the only answer to that question was-no,no way!Christian can't do that.it contradicts the word of God.some Christians were actually killed and many-many sent to prisons for refusal to go to Soviet army.But they chose not to compromise but to stay faithful to their God no matter what.Did they not know what their Bibles say about it?I know personally some men who have been through that and looking at their godly lives i have great respect for them.And they do know their Bibles very well.As for me-no,i don't think Christians should become soldiers or participate in any of that sort of activity.We have a different kind of battles to fight,not the flesh and blood. Yours in Christ,nasekom.




Thank you for your post.
I would say that christians will have less trouble and temptation if they remain out of the military. However I will also say that there are born again Christians in the the military. That it is lawfully scriptural for them to be there and carry out their duties. They must of course be wise and carefull to not fall into the various temtations that accompany being a soldier. This can be very difficult.

Finally, the christian soldier or police officer or governmental official who has to kill in the line of duty is not condemmed as a murderer. He is acting in his office. However. even when the christian is justified in this duty it can still be hard. But no one said life is easy...did they.

 2009/12/4 18:59
nasekom
Member



Joined: 2009/5/29
Posts: 146
Dublin,Ireland

 Re:

thanks thingsabove.as with many other things we can find Scriptures to support both points of view.what i do sometimes is i put it to a little test.Looking inside of me i ask myself before God (with This particular thread for instance)-am i(being a Christian) ok joining the military or police or something? Honest answer is NO.Again i was raised in Eastern Europe and the way i look at it is different from the way many Christians say in America look at it.We are called to be Christ-like and i just can't see myself(i can only speak for myself) being Christ-like with a loaded gun in my hand ready for action.


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Yuri

 2009/12/4 19:35Profile









 Re:

Amen nasekom, I agree with you in what you are saying. God bless.

 2009/12/4 19:46
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone,


Before I continue to participate in this thread I want to say that [i]it is[/i] [b][u]in no way[/b][/u] my intention in participating in this topic, to convince or encourage anyone to particpate in war or in civil governments, where ever they are and whoever they may be.

Let me say it again, [b]it is not[/b] my intention to convince or encourage anyone to particpate in war or in civil governments, where ever they are and whoever they may be.


That said, since this topic has continued I think there are some things that it would be appropriate to respond to. I'll try to do that following.


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/12/5 9:33Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Since there have been so many pages of writtings posted here it wouldn't be appropriate to try to respond to even many of them. Some things have caught my attention in particular and I would like to share some thoughts about them following, which I may do over several posts. The qoutes that I will be responding to come from the article that was posted titled: [i]Resist Not Evil--Jesus Commanded It--How Far Does It Go[/i].





Quote:
In rebuking Peter for slashing off the ear of the servant of the high priest, Jesus said, in Matt. 26:52, "Put up again thy sword to it's place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." The non-resistance Jesus taught was intended for all Christians in all circumstances.





And yet there is a very distinct context in which this is said.


And that context is the accomplishing of our Salvation. Christ was to be offered for our sins! He had many times before this warned the disciples and told them that it must be so and somewhat of how it was to happen, and this was not to be stopped. And the scriptures had to be fulfilled(Mat 26:54).

If His Kingdom were like the kingdoms of the world, if it was to be advanced into the world, and carried on to victory like the ways in which kings and kingdoms of this world fight for power and dominance in the earth, then His followers too would have fought [b]that He should be released[/b](John 18:11, 36).


But His Kingdom did not enter into this world like that. Neither did it or does it continue to advance in that way either. The power and momentum and victory for Christ's Kingdom comes from the power of God from on High, and from strength through weakness.


But it can be noticed here also that:

One, the Lord Jesus did not tell Peter(for whatever reason, I will not speculate) to throw away his sword altogether, but to put it back in it's place.


Two, according to Strong's, the word translated perish is:


G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.



Now, that may mean here, as perhaps we would most likely read it: that if you take the sowrd, [i]you[/i] will die with it also.


But in the context, I do not think it is impossible to be understood this way: that those that take the sword, [b]will fully destroy [u]with[/u] the sword[/b].

And so, if Peter would have continued, an all out fight would have ensued untill at least all or some were destroyed. Fighting and rage are a fire that is not easily put out(Proverbs 17:14).

But this was not to be!!!


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/12/5 10:04Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Quote:
Do you think that Christians killing people in war is acceptable to God? If so, then you must think God has a double standard for Christians, that He makes an exception to the rule for those who kill for a government as soldiers--who now are well paid for their service.




Quote:
Wars are fought to protect or secure a nation or country because of worldly desires or lusts.






Whatever you may think of these statements, or answer to them, I think that it is nescessary to remember the many and various ways that [b]the Scriptures[/b] describe God in relationship to these things.


For one, that He is not at all distant or far removed from them.

Wars may be fought for a variety of human reasons. But human beings are not the sole or soveriegn actors on the stage of this life. It is God that is ultimately over the destiny of any nation any age or time in history.


And so I think it is prudent to consider that before we attempt to answer the questions put here above for every individual, or before we are certain in our minds that we know the ultimate reason or the cause for any conflict or war among the nations.



Proverbs 21:1, 25:2-3 28:2

Psalm 2:6-12, 9:17, Is 60:1-22


Isaiah 13:1-22, 10:5-19, Jer 27:8, Mat 22:1-7


Psalm 24:1, 115:1-3, 22:27-28, 103:19-22


Psalm 97:9

Matthew 28:18






[i]edited to correct a reference[/i]


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/12/5 11:07Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Quote:
We are told in Hebrews 12:14, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" One cannot resist or defend by inflicting harm or death to another and at the same time possibly be holy.




And yet the Prophets and other men of God in the Sacred History of the Bible that did use a sword, some more or less than others, are also called Holy such as Samuel, or David, or any of the Judges of Israel.


And God, that is Most Holy, is certainly a defender: of the poor and needy(Ps 82:3), of those that call upon Him(Ps 59:1). And His people(Is 37:35).




Quote:
No where in the New Testament of the Holy Bible does Jesus teach fighting for freedom, for one's country, or anything else. The words of Jesus teach against being proud and lusting after the things of the world. We are to be humble and simple, content with what we are given in life, putting nothing before our love for God and pleasing Him by obeying His commands, which come through Jesus.





And yet I think that it can be unwise or even hurtfull attempting to sift the motives and intentions of the hearts of others. Because that is something reserved for God(Jer 17:10).


For what was in the heart of the three mighty men of David, who, when he longed for water from a well of Bethlehem, broke through the Philistine line to get it for him?

And did not David honor their courage and devotion to him by refusing to drink it before the Lord, calling it [i] the blood of the men that went in jeopardy of their lives? [/i]( see 2Samuel 23:13-17).


We are told to do all things as unto the Lord. We may or may not understand the actions of others, who would be claiming to do just that.


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/12/5 11:53Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Quote:
These next verses of scripture, (Romans 13:1-5), are often used to exempt civil and military duties from Jesus' teachings of non-violence. "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake." This is supposed to prove that Christians are to be part of armies fighting wars, and also policeman and other enforcing agencies of world governments; and because these are instituted by God, Jesus' rules no longer apply. How can anyone think that these five verses of scripture veto all of the strong and clear teachings of Jesus and the apostles that are found throughout the New Testament.





I think it would be appropriate to remember first that the Lord God is speaking in both places, both in the teachings of the Lord Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, and in the writings of Paul the Apostle in Romans chapter 13. God is speaking there, as much as in the book of Ecclesiastes, where the preacher says there is a time of war and a time of peace. For later, the same preacher says that he had sought out [i]acceptable[/i] words, and that which was written, was upright, and words of truth.


And so, if someone takes these seperately, and for instance does not believe that in the Sermon on the Mount the Lord Jesus was giving commandments to the kings and kingdoms of this world as to how they should order and protect their citizens and kingdoms, if they take that seperately from the Apostle Paul's teachings in Romans chapter 13 and suggest that they do, it doesn't mean they are taking the one set of passages as an exemption, or a veto over the others. But that they are trying to rightly divide(distinguish between) and apply the two.




Quote:
In Luke 3;7-14, John the Baptist was preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Many came forward, including soldiers, to be baptized asking what they must do. "And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages." How can a soldier continue to kill, cripple and injure people in all kinds of horrific ways, yet be obeying the order of John, "Do violence to no man"? The dictionary definition for violence is, physical or moral force; assault. How can a person be a member of Christ's Church, be a part of his most holy body, and commit such horrid acts of violence?




As was pointed out before in this thread, the word that is translated [i]violence[/i] in this passage in the KJV is defined this way:


G1286
διασείω
diaseiō
dee-as-i'-o
From G1223 and G4579; to shake thoroughly, that is, (figuratively) to intimidate: - do violence to.


I do not know why the KJV translators rendered this [i]violence[/i]. My suspicion is that it was the proper rendering for the english usage of the word violence at that time. I do not know that but it is my guess.

The way that I take the meaning of the word in this passage is that John was telling them not to "shake anybody down", that is, use force and the threat of violence to gain something from them, which would be a horrible abuse of thier authority and power. And I think that is entirely consistent with the rest of the passage.


What doesn't make any sense to me, is to suggest that John was telling soldiers to never do anything to harm anyone(which would be nescessary to one degree or another in being a soldier), and at the same time to expect that they should continue to get get their wages, let alone be content with them!

No, the whole force of the passage is that John is telling them they can repent this way:

dont' use their authority and postion to get money or anything else from people [b]unjustly[/b]. But be content with what they were rightfully earning. That is, [b][u]their wages[/b][/u].



I too hate the thought of violence. It could make me sick to my stomach and the last thing I want is [b]anyone[/b] to be harmed.


But I don't think that is what this passage is talking about.

I think that this will be all for now. I'll try to respond more later.


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/12/5 12:43Profile





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