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 Re:

I have been thinking for quite a while that this thread had ran its course. Thats just my opinion :) The reason I personally believe that it is so important is becuase I believe that the time is coming soon, very soon, where it will no longer be acceptable to be sold out to Jesus. So, if you are a policeman or a soldier and they tell you to round up your brothers and sister, then a dilema follows. To me, it is no different than the dilema that the Scottish soldiers faced in WWI when they were commanded to kill their German counterparts, the very ones that they had gotton to know on a snowy Christmas eve, shared pictures of their families, played soccer, and even had a service together to celebrate the birth of Jesus. That particular group of soldiers were disbanded and the minister who took the service was sent back to Scotland. An anicdote? Perhaps. The war to end all wars ? No. This is my last post on this thread. Apart from a couple of posts I think it has been very revealing. God bless you all in the name of Jesus........Frank

 2009/10/5 13:37
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi again all,


Not to take away from what Elisabeth had wrote, but I wanted to respond to something that Ginnyrose posted. Hopefully it will be complimentary to both.



"And I do not know of any one else who believes in Biblical non-resistance who will not agree. BUT the difference is who does it. This is the rub and therein lies the disagreements of this thread.

Jesus calls us to be peacemakers and to love our enemies. This is the mission of the church and as blood-washed saints we must be ever about the Master's work, allowing Him to use us a s vessels through whom his work will be accomplished.

This is in direct contrast to the function of the civil government who purpose is to maintain law and order. Paul teaches us this in Romans 13:1-6.

Now I can reasonably predict the next question..."



...whether or not it is permissable for a Christian to participate in God ordanined functions of civil government.



For those who say yes or no to that question, it may be worth considering how much damage could be done to the conscience of others by pursuading them in error either way.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/10/5 13:43Profile
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

In the old testament there were rules for every step of conduct - still the people were not able to follow them.
God had a better plan in Jesus. The Old Testament was the basis of this plan, it proved the need for the New Testament, for Jesus' blood sacrifice.

In the New Testament there are few rules set in stone beyond the trusting and believing in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior and following in His footsteps.

We are to be filled with the Holy Spirit, to imprint His Holy Word in our hearts and minds, then when it is time to act. if we have been successful in killing 'self' it will be Him acting through us.

This whole thread is full of people who want to go back to the Old Testament times, to have every action spelled out. On the surface it sounds as if that would be ideal but it would quickly be a burden and a legal tangle. People would rebel, it would not work now, it did not work the first time.

Jesus came to set us free from that. Why do you keep looking back. Remember Lot's wife?

No matter what anyone of you may say, I know if your family was on the line you would not, could not, sit by and simply say, "Whatever God wills." This would be the same as saying to a brother in Christ, 'Be ye warmed,' and not offering the means to warm him when the means were at your hand.

It is really that simple.

To me, if someone chooses non-combat service, it makes no matter. Someone has to do the job they take. Combat is not for everyone as well as non-combat is not for everyone. It is not my job to judge. My goal is to press on to the target, to run to win.

That job of killing 'self' is the hardest, this is where many choose a no-kill position and then lose the battle. Think about it.

Kind regards,
white stone


_________________
Janice

 2009/10/5 16:34Profile









 Re:

Ginnyrose, thank you for your post. I downloaded "Hey Peachy" to show to my unsaved Dad.

What prompted me to participate in this thread is all of my travels on the Internet, in "christian" circles and what I am hearing.

I mentioned it once already on this thread, but as we speak, many are preparing to defend "their rights & freedoms" in 'this' country, as we speak.

Threads like these must get out there.

This is not a small movement that I'm discussing, but a movement that is growing each and every day.

We can say that we've "died to self" and all - but to die to self is to "live for others" and threads like this are needed for those 'others.'

In the case of persecution or the loss of liberties or property, etc - unless we prepare our hearts now, we may be tempted to fight back and as Ginnyrose said so well - a mind-set ready for persecution and so forth does not come naturally nor instantly, but is developed and for that reason I am very grateful for this thread and any others like it. Very grateful.

Overcomers start with the simple examples that Ginnyrose gave ---

[i]"How do we respond when someone passes us on the road and then cuts in sharply in front of us? Or, if the cashier short changes us? Or, our spouse, do we love him/her as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her? Or, our children, do we fly off the handle when they make a mess? Will we cheerfully help them clean it up? Will we give up a social event so we can spend more time with our family? Or, how about a co-worker who is lazy and does not do his job? How often do we get mad when things do not go our way?

Biblical nonresistance teaches us how to respond to these types of situations, not just in the defending of one's country by serving in the military."[/i]

I see the last day's overcomers in Hebrews 11:36-38.


The sales of guns have gone up dramatically since last year, by both christians and non-christians and 'foreign' invasions were not their main motive for their purchases.

I've inadvertently directed a few large 'Patriot' forums to this Site & thread - if one knows what the newer definition of that title entails.

All we can do is pray now, that God will anoint our eyes with eyesalve, that we may see our Shepherd and the way in which He would have us to go, should we see the country that we live in go. Free nations are slow learners when it comes to the lessons that countries like China & others have had to learn by now and the hard way.
Once we kill someone, we can never bring them back to get saved.


Give us 'Your' Eyes Lord, I pray.

 2009/10/5 21:38
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4502


 Re:

Hi Jesus-is-God,

Quote:
I mentioned it once already on this thread, but as we speak, many are preparing to defend "their rights & freedoms" in 'this' country, as we speak.


What does it matter if there are people who live in this nation who are petitioning their government in regard to rights that are supposed to be guaranteed by the Constitution...or by those rights that are considered "inalienable" by the Declaration of Independence? If I remember correctly, there was a persistent widow who petitioned an unrighteous judge to move on her behalf. While such a petition for justice might not seem like a very "spiritual" thing to do, the Pharisees and Sadducees tried to "catch" Jesus when they made a similar fuss over taxes.

Earlier, you asked if I knew of any "righteous" government on the Earth. I think that is the wrong question. It isn't a question of whether or not the government (made of elected fellow INDIVIDUALS from the nation of our temporary citizenship) is righteous, but whether or not God uses governments as an "instrument of righteousness." From what I read and understood from the Scriptures, God has raised up governments to disperse righteousness and justice -- especially upon wrongdoers (I Peter 2:13-17).

Quote:
What prompted me to participate in this thread is all of my travels on the Internet, in "christian" circles and what I am hearing.


...and what prompted me to participate in this thread was to show that there are other perspectives about this issue from sincere believers who love the Lord with all of their hearts. I must confess that I have been disappointed when some "non-resistant" believers (even in this thread) seem to dismiss the views -- and even the faith -- of those with whom they disagree. Ultimately, as I have said before, I have searched the Scriptures prayerfully and diligently and have found nothing that seems to absolutely prohibit service by believers in the military, the police department, or in defending their families and the weak. I have read all of the passages presented by the non-resistant brethren, embrace those passages for what they are, but I still cannot embrace the interpretation as presented by the "non-resistant" brethren. I am not participating in this thread to argue or in an attempt to persuade the non-resistant brethren to change their views. Rather, I simply hope to utter a voice of caution toward those who might dismiss the careful, prayerful views of those with whom they disagree as "damnable heresy" (as one "non-resistant" brother said earlier).
Quote:
What prompted me to participate in this thread is all of my travels on the Internet, in "christian" circles and what I am hearing.


While I have seen some articles about this surge in gun purchases following the election last year, I would hesitate to act as if I know the underlying motive of most purchasers. Of course, I am not saying that you are suggesting such a thing; however, you brought this up and failed to complete the thought. I do think that it would be a stretch to suppose that these purchases are for any sort of "revolutionary" reason. In fact, a scientific "exit poll" that was directed toward gun purchases since the election indicated that the major rationale for these purchases was the fear that Obama (and a liberal Congress) would attempt to pass restrictions on "the right to bear arms" or make it more difficult for some individuals to purchase them. In fact, the most recent figure that I have seen pointed out that the most dramatic increase in sales belonged to single shot rifles -- which are typically used for hunting. Thus, I think that it would be a bit hasty to "connect dots" between this rise in gun purchases and any sort of suggestion that insinuates a more dire rationale.
Quote:

All we can do is pray now, that God will anoint our eyes with eyesalve, that we may see our Shepherd and the way in which He would have us to go, should we see the country that we live in go. Free nations are slow learners when it comes to the lessons that countries like China & others have had to learn by now and the hard way.

Oddly enough, there are individuals living in nations that restrict the free exercise of faith who are praying that they might have the type of freedom that we enjoy in this nation. It is this cause for which Pastor Richard Wurmbrand stood before Congress and implored them to act on behalf of the underground, persecuted Church in Communist nations.
Quote:
Once we kill someone, we can never bring them back to get saved.


This is true. Hopefully, every believer (including "non-resistant" brethren and those who don't embrace every aspect of their "non-resistant" views) are ALREADY doing what they can to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a world that is lost and dying.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/5 23:02Profile









 Re:

Forgive that my replies are in bold. I don't know how to reply between multiple quotes yet.

Quote:

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Jesus-is-God,
Quote:
I mentioned it once already on this thread, but as we speak, many are preparing to defend "their rights & freedoms" in 'this' country, as we speak.


Quote:
Chris replied: What does it matter if there are people who live in this nation who are petitioning their government in regard to rights that are supposed to be guaranteed by the Constitution...or by those rights that are considered "inalienable" by the Declaration of Independence? If I remember correctly, there was a persistent widow who petitioned an unrighteous judge to move on her behalf. While such a petition for justice might not seem like a very "spiritual" thing to do, the Pharisees and Sadducees tried to "catch" Jesus when they made a similar fuss over taxes.



[b]Chris, you obviously did not understand my post at all. Are you endorsing "defending rights and freedoms" with weapons? - because that was what I was obviously referring to.[/b]

Quote:
Earlier, you asked if I knew of any "righteous" government on the Earth. I think that is the wrong question. It isn't a question of whether or not the government (made of elected fellow INDIVIDUALS from the nation of our temporary citizenship) is righteous, but whether or not God uses governments as an "instrument of righteousness." From what I read and understood from the Scriptures, God has raised up governments to disperse righteousness and justice -- especially upon wrongdoers (I Peter 2:13-17).



[b]Here you are taking away from the post that I was replying to.
I asked, how you will respond if a Nation's military or law enforcement carry-out unrighteous deeds against your wife - where you said that they are in place to carry out God's righteousness. Again, it is so very easy to talk this way in a free nation.
I'm truly sorry that you've missed the whole point of my post above. Very sorry.[/b]


Quote:
What prompted me to participate in this thread is all of my travels on the Internet, in "christian" circles and what I am hearing.


Quote:
Chris replied: While I have seen some articles about this surge in gun purchases following the election last year, I would hesitate to act as if I know the underlying motive of most purchasers. Of course, I am not saying that you are suggesting such a thing; however, you brought this up and failed to complete the thought. I do think that it would be a stretch to suppose that these purchases are for any sort of "revolutionary" reason. In fact, a scientific "exit poll" that was directed toward gun purchases since the election indicated that the major rationale for these purchases was the fear that Obama (and a liberal Congress) would attempt to pass restrictions on "the right to bear arms" or make it more difficult for some individuals to purchase them. In fact, the most recent figure that I have seen pointed out that the most dramatic increase in sales belonged to single shot rifles -- which are typically used for hunting. Thus, I think that it would be a bit hasty to "connect dots" between this rise in gun purchases and any sort of suggestion that insinuates a more dire rationale.



[b]Chris, maybe you could bear it if I say that in this particular opinion of yours that you are quite naive. As I also said in that earlier post - I have the sites, but will not post those numerous forums that cover these things - but the concensus runs thus - "You'll get my gun when you pry it out of my cold dead frozen fingers."[/b]


Quote:

All we can do is pray now, that God will anoint our eyes with eyesalve, that we may see our Shepherd and the way in which He would have us to go, should we see the country that we live in go. Free nations are slow learners when it comes to the lessons that countries like China & others have had to learn by now and the hard way.


Quote:
Chris replied: Oddly enough, there are individuals living in nations that restrict the free exercise of faith who are praying that they might have the type of freedom that we enjoy in this nation. It is this cause for which Pastor Richard Wurmbrand stood before Congress and implored them to act on behalf of the underground, persecuted Church in Communist nations.



[b]My posts were toward us being spiritually, emotionally & mentally prepared to possibly see these freedoms taken from us as far as how we'd 'respond'.
I repeated that same theme through-out.[/b]

Quote:
Once we kill someone, we can never bring them back to get saved.


Quote:
Chris replied: This is true. Hopefully, every believer (including "non-resistant" brethren and those who don't embrace every aspect of their "non-resistant" views) are ALREADY doing what they can to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a world that is lost and dying.




[b]And then we can - Quote from a post on SI: "Nuke 'em" --- right?

For someone who claims to not desire to change a non-resistant's mind - you haven't convinced me of that with this last post.

You didn't even understand what or who I was posting about and why.

Richard Wurmbrand would be good to read right now, as well a Foxe's book of Martyrs, the Martyr's Mirror and several others that have been recommended here over the years.

Prepare your mind & emotions for your response to persecution and when losing your precious freedoms.

One of our Classic Authors on this Site said: "If you can't preach it to Every Nation on earth than don't preach it." - and on this issue, that is the bottomline.[/b]

 2009/10/6 0:09
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4502


 Re:

Hi Jesus-is-God,

Quote:

Chris, you obviously did not understand my post at all. Are you endorsing "defending rights and freedoms" with weapons? - because that was what I was obviously referring to.


Actually, I did understand your post. No, I am NOT endorsing a violent march against the government by those who own weapons. However, I feel that the question itself is moot because I don't see anyone actually doing that. What I was saying is that the New Testament contains an anecdote regarding a woman who petitioned an "unrighteous judge" to move on her behalf. Sometimes, I am concerned that those who reject believers who believe in certain forms of involvement with the nation that God has placed us might not be any different than the Pharisees who talked about tax collectors as "sinners" (Luke 18:9-14). But, in answer to your question: No, I was not endorsing armed individuals violently marching through the street to demand rights. However, I also don't think that your intent was so "obvious" within the position of your last post.
Quote:
Here you are taking away from the post that I was replying to.
I asked, how you will respond if a Nation's military or law enforcement carry-out unrighteous deeds against your wife - where you said that they are in place to carry out God's righteousness. Again, it is so very easy to talk this way in a free nation.
I'm truly sorry that you've missed the whole point of my post above. Very sorry.


Huh? Brother, you don't have to be so "sorry" and "very sorry" by incorrectly assuming that I missed your point. I was referring to your earlier post in which you asked, "[i]Brother, do you know a "righteous" government on earth?[/i]" While I understood the extent to what you were referring, I thought that my perspective was still valid to the discussion.

I believe that God uses governments as an "instrument of righteousness." In answer to your question, I believe that there are decisions that supersede other decisions. I covered this in several of my earlier posts. I believe that a person should not resort to physical means of resistance UNLESS there is a cause by which doing nothing is superseded by a need to intervene. If a government attempted to bring about unwarranted harm to my wife or family, I would certainly resist it.

Of course, there are other forms of "resistance" than mere physical fighting. I would do whatever I could to bring remedy WITHOUT resorting to physical restraint. I would first pray, then petition the government or government worker. However, I would defend my wife if an armed government worker broke into my home and attempted to harm my wife or family at the whims of an unrighteous decree. If you remember, there was a Roman soldier who was going to flog Paul the apostle. Paul "resisted" this by quoting the secular law to this Roman soldier. Paul realized that this was an unrighteous act by this Roman soldier, and effectively told him so. Ultimately, Paul "appealed unto Caesar" and used the Roman legal system in order to carry the Gospel to Caesar and Rome.
Quote:
Chris, maybe you could bear it if I say that in this particular opinion of yours that you are quite naive. As I also said in that earlier post - I have the sites, but will not post those numerous forums that cover these things - but the concensus runs thus - "You'll get my gun when you pry it out of my cold dead frozen fingers."


Call me "naive" all you want, but I disagree with your assessment of the situation. I have known plenty of people who are a part of the NRA and believe in the Constitutional right of gun ownership. I have known people who have had the "cold dead fingers" bumper sticker on their cars and trucks. However, most of them just think that it is a quirky slogan and not a mandate for violence against liberal legislators. Of course, I wouldn't wear such a shirt. However, I think that it is quite capricious to suggest that there is a possibly violent revolution brewing by gun owners right now against the government. In fact, most of the gun owners that I have ever known would be the least likely to shoot at anyone in the government. Sure, there might be some exceptions to the rule. However, most gun owners are NOT looking to fight the government. They prefer to use arms in order to hunt for food or to protect their families (if need be).
Quote:
My posts were toward us being spiritually, emotionally & mentally prepared to possibly see these freedoms taken from us as far as how we'd 'respond'.
I repeated that same theme through-out.


I'm not sure that this was the underlying theme of ALL of your statements, but I do understand your point. Of course, that was the rationale behind what I wrote. I believe that there is nothing in Scripture that absolutely prohibits believers from voting, petitioning the government for just or righteous causes, from serving in the military or police department or from defending a family member from an attacker.

In your hypothetical scenario of a government attempting to take away our "rights," I would not sit by quietly while watching someone attempt to take away those "rights." Now, I am NOT saying that I would resort to violence. I would petition the government just as Paul petitioned the Roman guard who was about to beat him. In fact, some of our Constitutional "rights" ARE under scrutiny (or even attack). In California (where I live), liberals have already gone to extreme measures in their attempt to remove any public expression of faith away from public schools or government. They wouldn't allow the mention of Jesus Christ in a school, but some schools recently played homosexual propaganda cartoons to school children. I believe that we can use the legal system of this nation to show how this is a misapplication of the Constitution's idea of First Amendment "liberty."

At the same time, I think that we should ALWAYS be prepared for whatever comes our way. If persecution comes to America, we should be prepared to endure through it. We should be prepared in case believers are forced to endure through the great period of tribulation during the time of God's wrath. At the same time, I also believe that the duty that God has charged me with as the man of my house has not changed.
Quote:

And then we can - Quote from a post on SI: "Nuke 'em" --- right?

For someone who claims to not desire to change a non-resistant's mind - you haven't convinced me of that with this last post.

You didn't even understand what or who I was posting about and why.

Richard Wurmbrand would be good to read right now, as well a Foxe's book of Martyrs, the Martyr's Mirror and several others that have been recommended here over the years.

Prepare your mind & emotions for your response to persecution and when losing your precious freedoms.

One of our Classic Authors on this Site said: "If you can't preach it to Every Nation on earth than don't preach it." - and on this issue, that is the bottomline.


Well, brother, we can agree to disagree. Regardless of whether you believe it or not, my goal in entering into this discussion was NOT to try and force others to adhere to my views. However, I entered the conversation with the motive to show that there is another perspective on this issue. I don't agree with every tenant of the "non-resistant" perspective...and I don't believe that a believer should come on here and dismiss those who don't embrace his views as part of a "false Christianity" that embraces "damnable heresy."

While you might accuse me of not understanding "what or who you were posting about" (without even asking me whether I understood it for stating as much), I still believe that my comments are still relevant in regard to this issue. Richard Wurmbrand might very well be a good read right now -- and how he implored the US government and believers in free nations to publicly stand up against the persecution of the Church. The man once was even arrested for ripping a megaphone out of the hands of an anti-war hippie protesting American involvement in Vietnam. Even today, Voice of the Martyrs invites believers to petition secular governments to act in righteousness and justice. I've received the newsletter for years. Their newsletter has often contained postcards that were to be mailed to secular governments on behalf of imprisoned and/or tortured believers.

We should certainly be prepared for persecution. Yet, the underlying motivation for my involvement in this thread is not to disagree with such a notion. Rather, I just think that believers should use caution before dismissing the faith of those with whom they disagree in regard to absolution within the presentation of "Christian non-resistance." There are other views and perspectives of this issue that are just as deserving of consideration. There are many of us who are NOT violent, but we still see no prohibition from Scriptures for service in the military, police department or in the defense of the weak or our families.

I hope that this clarifies the apparent misunderstanding just a little better.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/6 1:59Profile
chapel
Member



Joined: 2009/4/24
Posts: 280


 Re:

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:

Quote:
I don't agree with every tenant of the "non-resistant" perspective...and I don't believe that a believer should come on here and dismiss those who don't embrace his views as part of a "false Christianity" that embraces "damnable heresy."



As far as I can see from your multiple post is that you do not agree with any of the tenants of nonresistance. In fact Ccchhhrrriiisss there is a prevailing theme in everyone of your post and it simply has to do with your rights, it is all about you, though you make pretense of actually caring about others, the underlying theme is Ccchhhrrriiisss and his freedom.

Let me ask you a few questions Ccchhhrrriiisss; Have you ever served in the military? Do you have any idea what the average soldiers life is like? Have you ever been commanded to kill someone? Have you ever taken someone’s life? Have you ever entered a village after a strike has been called in upon it and seen the destruction that is left behind? The body parts of old men, women and children strewn about, slaughtered because they were in the way. You know why Ccchhhrrriiisss? For our precious freedom, yes and so we can control the natural resources of the world and keep our exorbitant life styles at the expense of the poor of this world.

You know what the "damnable heresy" is Ccchhhrrriiisss? It is defending this travesty of the wholesale slaughter of humans all because we think we deserve to live the way we do. It is not speaking out against it and allowing this suffering to go on. Instead you defend it.

May the Lord have mercy on their poor souls
lee


_________________
Lee Chapel

 2009/10/6 5:13Profile









 Re:

Quote:

chapel wrote:
You know what the "damnable heresy" is Ccchhhrrriiisss? It is defending this travesty of the wholesale slaughter of humans all because we think we deserve to live the way we do. It is not speaking out against it and allowing this suffering to go on. Instead you defend it.

May the Lord have mercy on their poor souls
lee



All your 'speaking' worked really well on the Rwandan genocide.

"Unlike French and U.N. troops, there were no U.S. troops officially in Rwanda at the onset of the genocide. [b]Nevertheless, the U.S. government and military made a number of decisions, some of commission and most of omission, that had the effect of facilitating and extending the genocide.[/b] A National Security Archive report points out five ways in which decisions made by the U.S. government contributed to the slow U.S. and worldwide response and to the continuation of the genocide:

1) Contrary to later public statements, the U.S. lobbied the U.N. for a total withdrawal of U.N. (UNAMIR) forces in Rwanda in April 1994;
2)Secretary of State Warren Christopher did not authorize officials to use the term "genocide" until May 21, and even then, U.S. officials waited another three weeks before using the term in public;
3)Bureaucratic infighting slowed the U.S. response to the genocide in general;
4)The U.S. refused to jam extremist radio broadcasts inciting the killing, citing costs and concern with international law;
5)[b]U.S. officials knew exactly who was leading the genocide, and actually spoke with those leaders to urge an end to the violence but did not follow up with concrete action.[/b][51]"

In this case the travesty belongs to those who refused to act in defense of those getting
killed.... own the travesty.

If history charges the blood of those who died in this genocide on the hands of those who refused to act on their behalf, what do you think God will do?

If you desire peace in this world full of war, sooner or later it requires action. That action involves an opposing military force.

 2009/10/6 8:51
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4502


 Re:

Hi chapel...

Quote:
As far as I can see from your multiple post is that you do not agree with any of the tenants of nonresistance. In fact Ccchhhrrriiisss there is a prevailing theme in everyone of your post and it simply has to do with your rights, it is all about you, though you make pretense of actually caring about others, the underlying theme is Ccchhhrrriiisss and his freedom.


...then you haven't really read all that I wrote within my posts. I have stated several times within this thread that I believe in PERSONAL non-resistance. In other words, I embrace the concept of "turning the other cheek" when such persecution is applied to me on a personal level for my faith. I have applied this in my life several times. So, yes, I do embrace at "non-resistance" to this extent. However, it is a stretch to say that the extent of my views is somehow egocentric in regard to secular "freedom." There is a difference between sitting aside and letting the world harm you...and sitting back and letting the world unjustly harm the weak or someone's family.

If I haven't made this clear enough to you, brother Chapel, I am saying that I cannot simply adhere to your form of "Christian non-resistance" because YOU say that I should. I have prayed about this issue, studied it diligently, and I can't see anything that you present that would cause me to believe that there is an absolute prohibition on service as a military serviceman, policeman or in defense of the weak or my own family. Thus, it isn't just about "freedom" as it pertains to this issue, but as it also extends to personal responsibility.
Quote:

Let me ask you a few questions Ccchhhrrriiisss; Have you ever served in the military? Do you have any idea what the average soldiers life is like? Have you ever been commanded to kill someone? Have you ever taken someone’s life? Have you ever entered a village after a strike has been called in upon it and seen the destruction that is left behind? The body parts of old men, women and children strewn about, slaughtered because they were in the way. You know why Ccchhhrrriiisss? For our precious freedom, yes and so we can control the natural resources of the world and keep our exorbitant life styles at the expense of the poor of this world.


Again, Chapel, this is something that I mentioned in several of my posts. No, I have NOT served in the military forces of this nation. However, I have prayed about it. In addition, my dad served in the military (in both the Marines and Navy). He was DRAFTED into the Marines during Vietnam while he was just 17 yrs old. He served his tour (without every firing a shot in combat) as an engineering assistant. However, he wasn't compelled to serve in the Navy. He did this on his own. He was intelligent and highly educated and could have easily chosen a career in a different field. Yet he chose to do so and make a career of it (serving 25 years in the Navy + 2 years in the Marines). Thus, I understand the life of a military family.

I do take issue with your suggestion about what the "average soldier's life" is like. I'm not sure if [i]you[/i] have ever served in the military, but the average US soldier is not commanded to kill innocent people. In fact, I have known many Marines, Army vets and Navy Seals who have NEVER killed a person (let alone an civilian). It is one thing for a nation to have a national defense in order to preserve the rights and well being of its citizens due to the charge in the Constitution and for the dispersion of justice. Even if you don't physically fight, this is what your taxes are spent upon (Romans 13:4-7). I also think that it is somewhat facetious to privily allege that the US military is used to "[i]control the natural resources of the world and keep our exorbitant life styles at the expense of the poor of this world[/i]." I find it ironic that you believe such a thing enough to be critical about it in the Christian forum, yet you limit your cause to an extremely malignant public allegation.
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You know what the "damnable heresy" is Ccchhhrrriiisss? It is defending this travesty of the wholesale slaughter of humans all because we think we deserve to live the way we do. It is not speaking out against it and allowing this suffering to go on. Instead you defend it.


Now, that is just plain silly. You are making a specific allegation (that I am "[i]defending this travesty of the wholesale slaughter of humans all because I think that I deserve to live the say I do[/i]") quite erroneously. Then, you say that it is a "damnable heresy." If it hasn't been clear enough: I have been saying repeatedly that I cannot simply adhere to such a form of "Christian non-resistance" because YOU say that I should. I have prayed about this issue, studied it diligently, and even considered your argument (and the arguments of others like you). And yet, I can't see anything from Scripture that you present that would cause me to believe that there is an absolute prohibition on service as a military serviceman, policeman or in defense of the weak or my own family.

A pretentious individual would dismiss such believers with this view as wearing "spiritual blinders" -- or worse, the state of being a "damnable heretic." Personally, I am walking before God with a clear conscience. If you are walking before God with a clear conscience, then more power to you. However, you are bordering on your own little ecclesiastic "theocracy" by trying to dictate such a precept to the consciences of fellow believers who still don't agree with you on some of these issues and with a willingness to pass off anyone else as part of a adherers of "false Christianity" who embrace "damnable heresy." Brother, do you really think that I am damned?
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May the Lord have mercy on their poor souls


Thanks! I suspect that ALL of us can welcome and embrace as much of the wonderful and unmerited mercy from the Lord as He chooses to provide.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/6 12:30Profile





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