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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Will You Kill or Be Killed?

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ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4503


 Re:

Hi Jesus-is-God,

Quote:
I would jump on an attacker of anyone to try to save the victims life and there are ways to save the victims life by not killing the attacker and this I know from at least two experiences I've had.


This is resisting. While you wouldn't [i]kill[/i] anyone, this is not adhering to the extreme end of "turning the other cheek" in every circumstance. This is what we are saying. No one is WANTING, TRYING or HOPING to [u]kill[/u] someone. Rather, this speaks to the extent to which believers can participate in the defense of OTHERS (the weak, your family, etc...) or to serve in the military or police department. In my opinion, the Scriptures seem to clearly indicate that such institutions (whether kings, governors, authorities or principalities) are "ordained of God" as "instruments of righteousness."

This is why I asked if it would be "righteous" thing to defend someone (like a child or wife) from an attacker. I also wonder if it would be an "unrighteous" thing to simply stand by and not intervene on behalf of others.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/4 19:11Profile









 Re:

Brother, do you know a "righteous" government on earth?

I follow Roms 13 - as the LORD would have us do whether they be righteous or not.

This is my concern. In many many nations, the powers that be are far from righteous and even now in our own country we see un-just laws that our own police and military are having to carry out.

As I asked pages ago - what do you do when it is 'them' that are man-handling your wife?

I feel your heart and have wished to share mine.

I gave Corrie Ten Boom and family as an example on the bottom of the previous page.

We're only "resisting" in my mind, when we ourselves are being attacked - protecting another is not "resisting" .... but when it is coming from our own police or military - my fear is for those who own guns and try to "resist".


 2009/10/4 19:35
chapel
Member



Joined: 2009/4/24
Posts: 280


 Re:

Heb. 10:32-36
32 Think back on those early days when you first learned about Christ.* Remember how you remained faithful even though it meant terrible suffering. 33 Sometimes you were exposed to public ridicule and were beaten, and sometimes you helped others who were suffering the same things. 34 You suffered along with those who were thrown into jail, and when all you owned was taken from you, you accepted it with joy. You knew there were better things waiting for you that will last forever.
35 So do not throw away this confident trust in the Lord. Remember the great reward it brings you! 36 Patient endurance is what you need now, so that you will continue to do God’s will. Then you will receive all that he has promised.
NLT

Seems pretty clear, doesn’t it?

Heb. 12:18-25
18 You have not come to a physical mountain,* to a place of flaming fire, darkness, gloom, and whirlwind, as the Israelites did at Mount Sinai. 19 For they heard an awesome trumpet blast and a voice so terrible that they begged God to stop speaking. 20 They staggered back under God’s command: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death.”* 21 Moses himself was so frightened at the sight that he said, “I am terrified and trembling.”*
22 No, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to countless thousands of angels in a joyful gathering. 23 You have come to the assembly of God’s firstborn children, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God himself, who is the judge over all things. You have come to the spirits of the righteous ones in heaven who have now been made perfect. 24 You have come to Jesus, the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks of forgiveness instead of crying out for vengeance like the blood of Abel.
25 Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking. For if the people of Israel did not escape when they refused to listen to Moses, the earthly messenger, we will certainly not escape if we reject the One who speaks to us from heaven!
NLT

“Which speaks of forgiveness instead of crying out for vengeance”

Romans 12:19-21
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. [20] Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

[u]"Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." [/u]


_________________
Lee Chapel

 2009/10/5 4:51Profile









 Re:

"However the ending of one life to preserve the lives of many remains the honourable thing to do in representing God to a fallen world. To abstain from this is cowardice before God." old joe

Wait a minute here. You're the one who posted that we shouldn't be making 'hard and fast rules' and therefore should follow the leading of the spirit. Now you are basically calling those who follow this leading via scripture cowards. You want it both ways(ccchhhrrriiss, here's your cowardice remark that you failed to see anyone use). Okay tough guy Joe, that's fine.

"However the ending of one life to preserve the lives of many remains the honourable thing to do in representing God to a fallen world"old joe

So are you for grabbing a rifle and taking out abortion doctors??

 2009/10/5 7:21









 Re:

"Should I sit here in comfort while my atheist neighbour goes to war allowing me to sit here, all the while I am chastising him for being there? That absolutely SCREAMS of hypocrisy, the stench of which is putrid in the nostrils of God." old joe

Give me a break, you're putting words in people's mouths. Who has said here that someone would chastise an atheist for this? The whole premise for the debate is for believers. Do you see any atheists here hashing the Bible in sincerity of belief??

"Non-resistors simply seek to reap the spoils of war without the pains."old joe

Joe here you are again being a hypocrite. You say we should impose 'no hard and fast rules' and follow the leading of the spirit yet you presume to know the minds of those who take a stance that requires what they think is biblical restraint. The spoils one reaps are the spoils God gives, or do you simply think man is in charge?

Also, if you are a Christian living in the Congo, are a citizen, and are ordered by your gov't to invade a neighboring territory and slay a village full of women and children whose leaders are militants, are you going to grab your 'gun butt' and take care of business? If it was told to you to take 'no prisoners' are you going to finish the job just like Joshua?? I mean in the OT children were killed and I see you invoke the OT alot in your justification. Was Paul just talking about the United States when he was discussing civil obedience?? Did the Holy Spirit not know that Communism and Dictatorships were to be part of many a nation in the forthcoming years?? As a Christian would you have demanded those who resist based on their beliefs to follow Hitler lest they reap the spoils while not wanting the required pain???? Had you saw the Jews as a threat to YOUR freedom, would you have put on your fatigues and hold your arm straight forward?? Had anyone in that military resisted because they were a Christian it could have ministered and they probably would have been killed. Should North Korean Christians sign up and invade the South if N. Korea deems it a threat to their country?? Should the Christian Chinese enter into their Red Army?? Is the underground Christian church made up of a bunch of cowards? Should they crawl out of their cowardly little hole and say 'were sorry, we'll do whatever you want because our civil loyalty trumps everything, can we have our rifles now?'. I don't remember Paul stating that civil obedience was just for those countries that had a democracy and defended the innocent. Tell me, what nations were around then that fit that description?? You seem to define your theology based on your personal situation based on the country you live, yet Paul was not bound by this.

"That absolutely SCREAMS of hypocrisy, the stench of which is putrid in the nostrils of God." oj

Yeah there's plenty of stench there huh??

 2009/10/5 8:05









 Re:

Quote:

ccrider wrote:
So are you for grabbing a rifle and taking out abortion doctors??



Are you for the police shooting the killer while he has his sight set on the doctor?

 2009/10/5 8:37









 Re:

I never made a statement either way on that but someone with a non-resistant view as it pertains to much of what has been discussed, would not be there in the first place to set the crosshairs... you however made the statement about defending the innocent to make the point... will you defend it or not.

 2009/10/5 8:43
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone,


I realise that this is somewhat behind but I thought it was worth bringing to mention again,


"While it may be argued that John the Baptist’s silence to the soldiers is explained by his limited understanding of the nature of the kingdom (as betrayed in Luke 7:18ff),"


I'm mentioning this, because, in another post, this same passage from Luke 3:14, was also qouted, but only so much of it as said...


"do violence to no man...".




John the Baptist was not speaking in ignorance, or in limited knowledge, when he gave the answer he did to the soldiers, in response to their question "and what shall we do?".


He [b]was not[/b] speaking in ignorance to them, he was speaking for God, [b]the very words of God[/b](John 1:6, 3:34). There was never a greater prophet of those that were born of women, than John.

He was sent by God to prepare the way for God, and on that day, he answered the soldiers, not by his own answer, but by God's.


He told them to, as I understand the context to signifiy, not do any unjust harm to anyone or anything that belongs to them, to not accuse them falsely (in the coruse of carrying out their duties) as being a solider at that time might have given them occasion to have to accuse others of something, and he said to them:

[b]be content with your wages[/b]. The wages of being a soldier.


Yes, by all means, we may bring to bear more and more scriuptures to help us understand something; but it is only commendable if we do so, if we mention them in their entirety when the subject demands it, an we apply them rightly.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/10/5 8:50Profile









 Re:

Quote:

ccrider wrote:
"Should I sit here in comfort while my atheist neighbour goes to war allowing me to sit here, all the while I am chastising him for being there? That absolutely SCREAMS of hypocrisy, the stench of which is putrid in the nostrils of God." old joe

Give me a break, you're putting words in people's mouths. Who has said here that someone would chastise an atheist for this? The whole premise for the debate is for believers. Do you see any atheists here hashing the Bible in sincerity of belief??


If what you are preaching is the truth, it has to apply to the saved and the lost. You must be preaching against the atheist going to war just as much as the Christian.

Quote:

"Non-resistors simply seek to reap the spoils of war without the pains."old joe

Joe here you are again being a hypocrite. You say we should impose 'no hard and fast rules' and follow the leading of the spirit yet you presume to know the minds of those who take a stance that requires what they think is biblical restraint.


I didn't expect you would like that, but it's true.

Quote:

Also, if you are a Christian living in the Congo, are a citizen, and are ordered by your gov't to invade a neighboring territory and slay a village full of women and children whose leaders are militants, are you going to grab your 'gun butt' and take care of business? If it was told to you to take 'no prisoners' are you going to finish the job just like Joshua?? I mean in the OT children were killed and I see you invoke the OT alot in your justification. Was Paul just talking about the United States when he was discussing civil obedience?? Did the Holy Spirit not know that Communism and Dictatorships were to be part of many a nation in the forthcoming years?? As a Christian would you have demanded those who resist based on their beliefs to follow Hitler lest they reap the spoils while not wanting the required pain???? Had you saw the Jews as a threat to YOUR freedom, would you have put on your fatigues and hold your arm straight forward?? Had anyone in that military resisted because they were a Christian it could have ministered and they probably would have been killed. Should North Korean Christians sign up and invade the South if N. Korea deems it a threat to their country?? Should the Christian Chinese enter into their Red Army??


Actually, I would join up to the opposing army and do my part to OPPOSE those groups you mentioned. You on the other hand would just sit there and complain how unjust war is while Hitler and all the other baddies you described killed everyone else.

You remember wars have two sides.

 2009/10/5 8:52









 Re:

"Actually, I would join up to the opposing army and do my part to OPPOSE those groups you mentioned." oj

So you wouldn't obey the gov't that supports this type of war as a Christian but would join the opposing via defection thereby not obeying the secular gov't of that which you were part of in the first place. I get it.

"You on the other hand would just sit there and complain how unjust war is while Hitler and all the other baddies you described killed everyone else."oj

Really, there would be no danger in resisting Hitler's army by flaunting disobedience? I think there would be a better chance of survival by your defection method. And yes Hitler's war was unjust.. do you disagree?

 2009/10/5 9:02





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