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chapel
Member



Joined: 2009/4/24
Posts: 280


 Re: Thou Shalt Not Kill

We could always look to the word of God, there is probably some direction for those who are serious about nonresistance.


Thou Shalt Not Kill

(Exodus 20:13 - Deuteronomy 5:17 - Matthew 19:16-19)

Nonresistance

Please note: the following Hebrew transliterations are used in this document:

Yeshua (Jesus)
Elohiym (God)
ha Mashiyach (the Christ)
ha Adon (the Lord)
Yahveh (the LORD)

Among the many heresies found within the realm of false Christianity here is one most outstanding. Before proceeding, the following references concerning truth, His word, knowing Him, and deception may be of interest to you.

"Then said Yeshua to those Jews which believed on Him, 'If ye continue in My Word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.' " Jn. 8:31-32.

"Yeshua answered them, and said, 'My doctrine is not Mine, but His that sent Me. If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of Elohiym, or whether I speak of Myself.' " Jn. 7:16-17.

"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." Jms. 1:22-25.

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to Me: seeing thou has forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children." Hos. 4:6.

"I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth... Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." I Jn. 2:21,24.

"And hereby do we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth in not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of Elohiym perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him." I Jn. 2:2:5.

"If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered, and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is My Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be My disciples. As the Father hath loved Me, so have I loved you: continue ye in My love. If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have keep My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." Jn. 15:6-10.

"They profess that they know Elohiym; but in works they deny Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." Titus 1:16.

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Mashiyach. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great things if his ministers also shall be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their own works. " II Cor. 11:13-15.

"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." II Tim. 3:13.

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause Elohiym shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." II Thes. 2:9-12.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying ha Adon that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways: by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of." 2 Pet. 2:1-2.

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of Elohiym, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves men shall arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears." Acts 20:28-31.

"But speak though the things which become sound doctrine." Titus 2:1.

"And the servant of ha Adon must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if Elohiym peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." II Tim. 2:26.

"Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers." Titus 1:9.


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The heresy about to be addressed which denies Yeshua is the common belief that Yeshua allows his children to kill their fellow man in wartime, or in self defense, or to protect the life of another, or by capital punishment, or by the abortion of an unwanted, unborn child. Most people stumble on the fact that contrary to the first covenant, which permitted certain acts of killing, the New Testament prohibits such acts. The gospel states that "the law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Yeshua ha Mashiyach." Concerning the change that the New Testament has made from the Old, here are also some scriptures.


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" 'Behold, the days come,' saith Yahveh, 'that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.' " Jer. 31:31.

"Yahveh is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; He will magnify the law, and make it honourable." Isa. 42:21.

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Yeshua ha Mashiyach." Jn. 1:17.

"If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." Heb. 7:11-12.

"For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto Elohiym." Heb. 7:19.

"But now hath He obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, He saith, ' Behold, the days come,' saith ha Adon, 'when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith ha Adon. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith ha Adon; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: and they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know ha Adon: for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.' In that He saith, 'A new covenant,' He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Heb 8:6-13.

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross." Col. 2:14.

"For the grace of Elohiym that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great Elohiym and our Saviour Yeshua ha Mashiyach; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." Titus 2:11-14.

"By so much was Yeshua made a surety of a better testament." Heb. 7:22.

"And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: but their minds were blinded: for unto this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Mashiyach." II Cor. 3:13-14.

"But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; as it is written, 'Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.' " Rom. 9:31-33.

"Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, 'Behold I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on Him shall not be confounded.' Unto you therefore which believe He is precious; but unto them which be disobedient, 'the same is made the head of the corner,' and 'a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence,' even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light." 1 Pet. 2:6-9.

"For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens." Heb 7:26.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is completely wrong to justify killing by using examples from the Old Testament seeing that the New Testament has changed this. The following quotations from the New Covenant expose the fallacy of this commonly accepted, extremely serious, damnable heresy.


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"Do violence to no man..." Lk. 3:14.

"Recompense no man evil for evil..." Rom. 13:17.

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." Mt. 10:16.

"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another..." Mt. 10:23.

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, 'Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment.' : But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry at his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:..." Mt. 5:21-22.

"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: for the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of Elohiym." Jms 1:19-20.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth': But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." Mt. 5:38-39.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour and hate thine enemy.' But I say unto you, 'Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven...'" Mt. 5:43-45.

"Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of Man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy; for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets." Lk 6:22-23.

"Woe unto you when all men shall speak well of you! For so did their fathers to the false prophets. But I say unto you which hear, 'Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them that curse you and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also." Lk. 6:26-29.

"Bless them which persecute you; bless and curse not." Rom. 12:14.

"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath; for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine; I will repay,' saith ha Adon. Therefore 'if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink; for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." Rom. 12:19-21.

"Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you...Ye have condemned and killed the just and he doth not resist you. Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of ha Adon..." Jms. 5:1,6-7.

"He was oppressed and afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth: He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He opened not his mouth." Isa. 53:7.

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Mashiyach also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps:... Who when He was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed Himself to Him that judgeth righteously." I Pet. 2:21,23.

"As it is written, 'For thy sake we are killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.' " Rom. 8:36.

"And I say unto you my friends, be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea I say unto you, fear Him." Lk. 12:4-5.

"And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of Elohiym. For unto you it is given in the behalf of Mashiyach, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake." Php. 1:28-29.

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for My sake shall find it." Mt. 16:25.

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shalt cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Rev. 2:10.

Please see also:

"The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord." Mt. 10:24.

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of Elohiym, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world." Php. 2:15.

"Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: neither give place unto the devil." Eph. 4:26-27.

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through Elohiym to the pulling down of strong holds;) casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of Elohiym, and bringing into captivity every though to the obedience of Mashiyach." II Cor. 10:3-5.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Eph. 6:12.

"And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the alter the souls of them that were slain for the word of Elohiym, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Adon, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?' And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Rev. 6:9-11.

"And ye became followers of us, and of ha Adon, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: so that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. For from you sounded out the word of ha Adon not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to Elohiym-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to Elohiym from idols to serve the living and true God; and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Yeshua, which delivered us from the wrath to come." II Thes. 1:6-10.

"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolators, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." Rev. 22:14-15.

"Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal. 5:21.

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." Rev. 13:10.

"Then said Yeshua unto him, 'Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.' " Mt. 26:52.

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 Jn 3:15.

Please help us publish this truth. Copy and distribute to others!
Nonresistance


_________________
Lee Chapel

 2009/10/3 16:12Profile









 Re:

The more Scripture the better.
Thank you Chapel, very much.


Here's one that may go along with this topic - :-(

[b]Growing Number of Detroit Pastors Wear Handguns in Pulpit[/b]
Thursday, October 01, 2009

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,558804,00.html?test=latestnews


Edit: Can't fix the link - so here's the [url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=Growing+Number+of+Detroit+Pastors+Wear+Handguns+in+Pulpit&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=] google search.[/url]

 2009/10/3 16:16









 Re:

Hi ChrisJD,

I am sure that no one would argue with you that today is a different day that 2000 years ago. Yet, the principles are exactly the same. The title of this thread is to kill or be killed. Many have argued and stated that they have no problem with joining the army and going to war. Further, there can be no greater cause for joining the army and going to war than to defend your very homeland.

You could argue to the cows come home that was it right to join the army and fight in the Indian wars, or the war against Mexico , or the war against Spain or WW1 OR WW2 or Vietnam or Invading Panama or Desert Storm or Afghanistan or Iraq and that would be all well and good. Yet lets take it to the highest level, lets say an army has ammassed and is coming to invade America and destroy it completely so that it will be no more. Would that not be the war, above any wars, that would justify going to war for a Christian, to protect their culture, their heritage, their families their very existance?

This is what the Apostles and followers of Christ faced in 70 ad and they faced that for their country that had been around for 1500 years. Yet they did not fight to defend it. My question is why did they not fight to defend their country if the Scriptures allow for that? And remember, who knows what kind of NT literature the average Christian had access to in 70ad? And why were the majority of the Apostles killed this very same year? Could they have run into what Jeremiah ran into? Was the level of hatred of men of God elevated because of the intense political situation that Israel was in? Questions to ponder.........Frank

 2009/10/3 17:48
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi Frank,


"Yet, the principles are exactly the same."


I understand this, but I was responding to the specific examples that you mentioned which are not comparable today(in Western Countries).





"This is what the Apostles and followers of Christ faced in 70 ad and they faced that for their country that had been around for 1500 years. Yet they did not fight to defend it. My question is why did they not fight to defend their country if the Scriptures allow for that?"


The Lord Jesus specifically told them to flee when they saw Jerusalem encompassed with armies(Luke 21:20-22).

A warning given in several places in the scriptures(Luke 19:41-44, Mat 22:7).


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/10/3 18:09Profile
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

Dear Jesus-is-GOD,

Fixed your link. Good catch.

[url=http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,558804,00.html?test=latestnews]Fox News - Growing Number of Detroit Pastors Wear Handguns in Pulpit[/url]

There is a time for everything. . . .


_________________
Janice

 2009/10/3 19:07Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4502


 Re:

Hi Chapel...

Could you tell me the name of the brother that you quote as having written these words contained in your post?

Quote:

Among the many heresies found within the realm of [b]false Christianity[/b] here is one most outstanding. Before proceeding, the following references concerning truth, His word, knowing Him, and deception may be of interest to you.

....

The heresy about to be addressed which denies Yeshua is the common belief that Yeshua allows his children to kill their fellow man in wartime, or in self defense, or to protect the life of another, or by capital punishment, or by the abortion of an unwanted, unborn child. Most people stumble on the fact that contrary to the first covenant, which permitted certain acts of killing, the New Testament prohibits such acts. The gospel states that "the law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Yeshua ha Mashiyach." Concerning the change that the New Testament has made from the Old, here are also some scriptures.

....

It is completely wrong to justify killing by using examples from the Old Testament seeing that the New Testament has changed this. The following quotations from the New Covenant expose the fallacy of this commonly accepted, [b]extremely serious, damnable heresy[/b].



By the way, I think that it is ridiculous to label any opinion or view that is contrary to the view of "non-resistance" to be "heresy." Rhetorically, this rejects those who does NOT practice this particular facet of "non-resistant" as "heretics."

It is one thing to disagree with other brethren on this issue. It is an entirely different thing to reject those individuals as "heretics."


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/3 19:25Profile









 Re:

Hi ChrisJD,

So, if I am reading you correctly, you are sating that if they did not have this specific warning that they would have stood and fought alongside the Scribes and the Pharisees and the ones who would eventually kill them in an effort to save their country? Please correct me if you are not saying that........Frank

 2009/10/3 19:54









 Re:

Here is an interesting excerpt from John Wycliffe's "Seven deadly sins." We know how men treated this brother.......Frank

Chapter 13



Each man who is disposed to vengeance by irrational anger is like a devil that blasphemes against God, who is the proper one to punish His subjects. No man should take vengeance unless God commands him to, and shows him as His instrument how God would have that punishment delivered. Thus, each wrathful man blasphemes against God. According to civil law, no man may make battle unless he has the permission of his prince. Certainly an earthly prince is usually proud, and lacks the understanding to teach when men should fight, and therefore it is likely that worldly prince is the instigator of the battles that men now endure. I am certain that Christ is the king of peace and love, and guides men to the patience that flowed from His own human nature.

And here may we see how the devil’s interference deceives the people and moves them to fight. The devil takes for a fact that under the Old Law men were permitted to fight by the authority of God, and since He is the same God now, why should men not fight now? We agree with the devil’s claim that in the Old Testament it was lawful to fight. Scripture teaches us this. Under the New Law, it would now be lawful for us to fight if the same circumstances justified it as were present under the Old Law; otherwise, men should live in peace out of love for our God. Truly, men fought with God’s enemies under the Old Law to avenge wrongs committed against God and for no other reason. The same applies to men now, if their fighting is to be lawful. The second requirement for lawful fighting demands that fighting be made by the authority of God – that God should speak to them, command them to fight, muster the necessary men, and teach them how to fight. If men kept this in mind, they would not fight now against anyone. But treacherous men stir up battles now, even though the time has come that Isaiah spoke of regarding Christ – that men shall beat their swords into plowshares and the iron of their spears into scythes or sickles. The third condition that men should meet in fighting and warring is that they should perform the deeds of their fighting out of love, loving God and their neighbors – specifically, the men they are fighting with. Saint Paul commanded that all our deeds be done in love, and according to God’s law we should love our enemies, and so make them friends by the strength of our love.

Since no man should fight except with these three conditions, it is obvious that men should not fight now. And therefore Jesus Christ, the champion of our battle, taught us the law of calmly enduring misfortune and suffering, and not to fight bodily. If God whispers in your ear and commands you to fight in His cause, then, as God taught by His prophets in the Old Testament, fight vigorously in God’s cause as He Himself commands you; otherwise, hold your peace as Christ did with His disciples. And so this argument – if men fought at one time with these three conditions, then men should fight now – can be seen as an false argument. Now is the time of peace. The Church is mature, and it does not follow from any of these conditions that men should fight with each other – in fact, just the opposite follows, as each man should know. And so the devil, the father of anger, is the one who authorizes this fighting, and his disciples follow along, moved by their master.



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Chapter 14



Furthermore, in order to maintain men’s fighting, the Antichrist argues that nature teaches that men should stand against their enemies by force. Since an adder by its nature bites a man who treads on it, why should we not fight against our enemies? Otherwise, they would destroy us and condemn their own souls. Thus, we chastise them out of love, as God’s law teaches us. And so, since our enemies would attack us, if we hear about them beforehand and love ourselves more, we should attack them first in order to secure our peace.

Here I think the devil deceives many men by the falseness of his reasons and principles. What man, who has understanding, cannot see this fraud? If it is lawful to stand against violence with brute strength, then it is lawful to fight with men who stand against us. I am certain that angels stand against devils, and many men stand against their enemies by strength of law; and yet they do not kill them or fight with them. Wise men of the world hold back their strength, and thus vanquish their enemies without throwing a punch. Men of the Gospel conquered through patience, and yeomen won rest and peace by suffering death. We may also do right, if we care about love. Though men may seize our estates or our possessions, we should suffer in patience – yes, though they do even more to us. These are the counsels of Christ, but the world grumbles and says that kingdoms are destroyed in this way. But here faith teaches us, since Christ is our God, that this is the way kingdoms should be established, and our enemies be vanquished. But perhaps many men would lose their worldly riches. What harm would that be, since all men were without such an estate before Adam’s fall?

The devil uses venomous snakes as his example, and by a simple animal characteristic he teaches men to fight. But many other examples of patience in animals should teach us to endure suffering, and so accomplish a greater good. A devil’s feelings govern him and convince him that his enemies would kill him if he were patient. That is equivalent to saying that the devil would destroy him if he obeyed Christ’s word, thus making the devil greater than Christ. And if we fight thus out of “love,” it is not a benevolent love, for benevolence does not seek one’s own good in this life, but the common good in heaven by virtuous patience. I am sure that worldly men will scorn this teaching, but men who would be martyrs out of love for God will embrace it, and they are more to be desired because they have more and better love with God. Men who fight have a deceitful love, the kind of false love that the demons of hell invent. But men shall know on Judgment Day who fights thus for “love.” It is no loving thing to ride against your enemy upon a strong war-horse and armed with a sharp spear – in comparison, the kiss of Judas was more of a token of love. And so God’s law teaches men to excel in deeds of love and works of worship. I do not read in God’s law that Christian men should excel in fighting or battle, but in meek patience. And this is the means whereby we should have God’s peace.



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 2009/10/3 20:15
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Brethren,

Notice these scriptures in Acts concerning Paul being full of the Holy Ghost and how he acted in these situations. Notice also what he stated in Romans about the authorities being the minister of God to execute judgment upon the offender. Paul was an apostle and never was he violent to anyone since his conversion. He was not always completely nonresistant either. We are to walk in the light that we have received. I believe that one can be so full of the Holy Ghost that one can be completely protected by God from any harm if God so chooses. I believe that sometimes we will suffer and yet the Holy Ghost will sustain us through it.

The apostle Paul said that he had shun not to teach the whole counsel of God but yet he was silent upon saying that a Christian could not be in government using force for the good of mankind. He only told us to respect them and not to resist the authorities. I really believe that we as Christians need to be full of the Holy Ghost and follow the will of God with our whole heart and quit trying to judge everybody else on what they can or cannot do when something is a noble work. I think if we had more Christians filled with the Holy Ghost and going about the world like the apostle Paul winning people to Jesus instead of judging people doing a noble work for their fellowman we would see more done for the cause of Christ. Let’s get busy trying to reconcile people to God and live out our convictions to God. Let’s not judge one another brethren in things that God has allowed and if you are convicted about something then live out that conviction to God.


Acts 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
Acts 13:7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.
Acts 13:8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
Acts 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
Acts 13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
Acts 13:12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.


Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
Acts 20:18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
Acts 20:19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
Acts 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 20:22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
Acts 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
Acts 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.


Acts 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.
Acts 23:2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
Acts 23:3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
Acts 23:4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?
Acts 23:5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Romans 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Romans 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

The bible also tells us to show honor, respect, and render to all their dues. Paul wanted to see everybody saved, we need that same spirit. He didn’t even escape from prison because he wanted the phillipian jailer to be saved and praise God he was. I believe there are some things you just don’t need to talk about and if you want to see policeman and military men saved then don’t tell them that, you as a Christian, don’t respect what they do and that they can’t be a Christian and do that type of work. How is that going to help them get saved if you are already condemning and making them think they can’t be a Christian. The apostle Paul was a wise man and full of the Holy Ghost.


Blessings to all!

 2009/10/3 22:16Profile









 Re:

Quote:

chapel wrote:
We could always look to the word of God, there is probably some direction for those who are serious about nonresistance.


Thou Shalt Not Kill

(Exodus 20:13 - Deuteronomy 5:17 - Matthew 19:16-19)



And yet there are times recorded when the Israelites were commanded to kill from the Lord Himself after receiving that very commandment. What then? Your pacifism would have you deny what God would have you do. The faith of Abraham could not be displayed in a pacifist, they wouldn't be willing to kill their own son if God had commanded.


Deut 20:17
But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:


Josh 11:11-12
11 And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.

12 And all the cities of those kings, and all the kings of them, did Joshua take, and smote them with the edge of the sword, and he utterly destroyed them, as Moses the servant of the Lord commanded.

1 Sam 15:2-3
2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.


1 Sam 15:18-20
18 And the Lord sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.

19 Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the Lord, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the Lord?

20 And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the Lord, and have gone the way which the Lord sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites.

Ex 15:3
3 The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

1 Sam 17:29
29 And David said, What have I now done? Is there not a cause?

1 Sam 17:36
36 Thy servant slew both the lion and the bear: and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be as one of them, seeing he hath defied the armies of the living God.

1 Sam 17:45-51
45 Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.

46 This day will the Lord deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.

47 And all this assembly shall know that the Lord saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give you into our hands.

48 And it came to pass, when the Philistine arose, and came and drew nigh to meet David, that David hasted, and ran toward the army to meet the Philistine.

49 And David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth.

50 So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David.

51 Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw
their champion was dead, they fled.

Were it not for the courage of the Davids' in this world, where would any of us be?

Gen 9:6
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Rev 19:13-16
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LordS.


As Eccl 3:3 states, there is indeed a time to kill and a time not to kill, it is left to the servant of the Lord to discern the difference. Those who say kill everything or kill nothing have only made rules to cover up their lack of discernment.

 2009/10/3 22:21





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