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poet
Member



Joined: 2007/2/16
Posts: 231
Longview WA

 Re:

If memory serves me, I believe God set the ruling body's in place to keep order.
Like law inforcement and the like, and God used these forces to bring judgment on people that needs to be judged. He did this multiple times in the old testament, and mentioned in the new.
If your neighbor is getting murdered, would we not run over and save them, even if it meant to kill if that is what it took to save them.
Would we not run to save Israel if she were attacked by hateful, evil, people?
If our Government is taken over by Satan himself, then it would be a judgment of God on us.
And if were martyred for our faith then were martyred for our faith, we don't kill then to save our own skin, because were being judged or tested for a greater testimony for God.
I believe God uses military to judge rogue nations who need to repent and convert or just show them who he is.
Almost never in scripture, but in some very few cases God did the judgment with his own hand without mans help.
But almost always God used military's to judge nations.
If christians did nothing during WWII, I think we would be considered in the eyes of God worse than the worse reprobate who watched his neighbor die and pull down the shades of the window so that we couldnt see what was happening and turn up the t.v. so we couldnt hear them screaming.


_________________
howard

 2009/9/14 11:19Profile









 Re:

HI Poet...

"I believe God uses military to judge rogue nations who need to repent and convert or just show them who he is."

Apart from the judging of Caannan, which was specifically spoken by God and carried out by men, it was rogue nations that God used to do the judging of Israel, not the other way around. One mandate of God does not contradict another, there is harmony in God's teachings, you seem to suggest otherwise? Perhaps I am misreading you?. Perhaps you are co-mingling the secular state, set up to keep at bay the forces of anarchy, with "God's people,' wherever they may be. These are two different entities.One can be used as a vehicle for God's puposes as He deems it, the other is set apart, sanctified, priests in a royal priesthood, a peculiar people.....Frank

 2009/9/14 11:59
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Dear Brothers in Christ,

This is such a hard topic. I've read the thread many times, and I've prayed for the Spirit to enlighten me on this, for I know deep in my heart that, although I would not desire to kill anyone at all, there could be situations where I would do it.

I appreciate very much all the posts on Christ's admonition not to kill, but to run away as a defense to evil, and I will try my best to do exactly this when possible.

My guiding verse for situations where one might have to kill or be killed is this:

Ro 13:9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Possible scenarios:

a) If an evil person attacks me physically, I will try my best to subdue him. However, I would rather embrace death myself rather than kill him. I would rejoice that my salvation is secure, and since my attacker might not be saved yet, I would embrace death myself.

b) If an evil person attacks a fellow Christian in front of me, I would try my best to defend him/her without killing the attacker. If it then comes to a life-or-death choice, I would die rather than kill for the reason cited in a)

c) Given the same situation as b), but it becomes a life-or-death choice for my brother/sister and not for me, I still would not kill the attacker for the reason that my brother/sister would go to God, while the attacker still needs salvation.

d) However, if an evil attacker attacks an innocent person in front of me and, as far as I know, neither of them is saved; and it is not possible to subdue the attacker without killing him, I probably would defend the innocent victim by killing the attacker.

My comfort in the above action is God's command to love my neighbor as myself. For if I allowed the evil attacker to kill the innocent victim, I would have violated that same command of God. If one would argue that I did not treat the evil attacker as myself, my only response would be: choosing between an innocent person and an evil one, I would defend the innocent. I believe that is what God would want me to do.

 2009/9/14 13:52Profile









 Re:

Frank, yes you misread and no you didn't answer my "specific" question.


But lets say you have answered the question.

Well the answer I hear is that christians who are in government or military who wield the sword are murderers. Now, since no murderer will inherit the kingdom of God then they are not real christians who have the hope of going to heaven.

Thats the answer I hear from you.
Now here is a snippet of what I believe.

I believe the "higher" road is non-resistence. I also believe the christian under proper governmental authority as a politician, military or police officer can wield the sword against unrightousness and not be judged as a murderer.

I believe getting this worked out is important for the conscience of concerned christians on both sides of the proverbial fence.

 2009/9/14 14:28









 Re:

HI thingsabove, thanks for the clarification, you write....

"I also believe the christian under proper governmental authority as a politician, military or police officer can wield the sword against unrightousness and not be judged as a murderer."

Now, I understand that you believe that. Many of us have multiple opinions on any number of topics, agreed? Lets be clear, you are saying something very specific here, all I would ask for is Scripture and verse and how you extrapilate the quoted verse so that it fits with your opinion above. That way we keep it to Scripture and we may have a disagreement as to what the actual Scripture that you will quote means, but that would be fine. At least if we keep it to Scriptures we can examine context and so on and so forth, especially in light of the sermon on the mount. If we are going to say that we can put these commandments to one side if we join an organisation, then that is such a heavy doctrine that it would require multiple Scriptures to back it up. And when we consider the example set by the early church which did no such thing, it becomes even harder a point to argue, outside of self-preservation........Frank

 2009/9/14 16:41









 Re:

I will give a little more detail later.

For now I encourage you and others to back away from this and thiiink about the heart of the question i asked and the answer.

Remember the question and answer can sentence many christians to hell for murder.

I will give this a day or two for thought and further comment by others.

(edit add)p.s. reminder, this isn't about me or you winning an argument.

 2009/9/14 17:31
chapel
Member



Joined: 2009/4/24
Posts: 280


 Re:

Thingsabove,

I will ask a couple of favors from you before I say anything further. Please do not demand anything from me and do not expect a speedy answer to any question you may ask in our discussions.
Though I’m retired from regular employment it does not apply to the Lord’s service, so I do not spend much time on this forum. I volunteer at our local mission, at the veteran’s hospital and have many other responsibilities in service to our Lord, thus my time here is limited and your questions, though important, are not my top priority.


Please do not think in your haste there is some speedy solution from man to the questions you pose, for much greater minds than ours have struggled with them for centuries. Maybe the solution simply comes from obeying the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ with no what if’s allowed.

Ok, to start with if you were not happy with the answers you received from hmmhmm and appolus then I’m sure you will not be happy with mine.

I believe it is the words and life example of Jesus Christ that we are called to obey and follow. Jesus makes it very clear that all will be judged by his word.

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

John 14:24
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

We find it very clear in 1 Peter 2:18-23 that we are to follow his example.

“Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. [19] For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. [20] For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. [21] For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: [22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: [23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:”

In light of these I can only tell you what I believe the Lord has given me to follow.

We are told in 1 Cor. 11:31
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

What do we use as a standard to judge ourselves by? I believe it is his word and his example. He sets the standard we are to live by and judge ourselves by.
He did not say I should judge you or someone else and I should not be judged, he said we are to judge ourselves.

Thus I cannot answer your questions because you are asking me to judge you and others.

If you after prayerfully studying the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ are led to put yourself in the position to take the life of others for what ever reasons, you will be judged by his word, as will we all.

Thank you for your patience.
lee


_________________
Lee Chapel

 2009/9/14 19:49Profile









 Re:

Hi thingsabove, you write...

"For now I encourage you and others to back away from this and thiiink about the heart of the question i asked and the answer.

Remember the question and answer can sentence many christians to hell for murder.

I will give this a day or two for thought and further comment by others."

Not real sure where you are coming from thingsabove. All of the questions have been answered, I believe, by Chapel, hmmmmm and myself. Now you may not like the replies and thats fine, we could always agree to disagree, I feel sure Hmmmm and Chapel would agree with that. It is a centuries old debate. No need to back away and wait a few days brother, these are questions I know that Chapel and hmmmmm and myself have searched the Scriptures over, and at least for myself, that would constitute 18 years of Christianity. Just so you know, no one is going to "win this debate." :) One final point, your question and any of our answers will have absolutely no bearing on the destination of anyone's soul. A persons standing before God is based on the shed blood of Calvary and nothing more. One either knows Jesus or one does not. And if someone knows Jesus and has been regenerated, then I sleep well at night that the Holy Spirit will lead that one into all truth........Frank

 2009/9/14 20:16
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2007


 Re: Will You Kill or Be Killed?

Someone has asked,

"...how does your statement "I myself do not hold to Anabaptist,Mennonite,Amish or the like,in regard to their doctrine of 'Non-Resistance'" differ from the one held by these groups?"

I reply to all,

These groups mentioned hold to the "doctrine of non-resistance" also known as the "doctrine of non-retaliation". These doctrines in their purest form are rightly defined by the term pacifism. Therefore such adherents of said doctrines may justly be called pacifists.

Christians are not pacifists nor followers of doctrines of men,whether said doctrine be pacifism,humanism,or or any of the many other 'isms'. Although all doctrines of men are equally doctrines of men not all are equal in import,detriment,delusion or destructiveness to soul or body.

In my post(militarism and the christian) I attempted to address that very subject in brevity, 'militarism and the christian'. I purposely avoided the argument (non-violence) which is most commonly used although I agree that such argument has its strengths. I attempted to show that the military for a christian is not an option for said reason, and could not be categorized legitimately under Romans 13.Whereas there may be positions that are optional for the christian elsewhere in that sphere addressed in Romans 13.

In Romans 13 and other places is proof of civil government and the powers that be, that they are of God. We'd all desire God-fearing men to be in positions of authority to govern righteously according to the will of God as stated in Romans 13. Therefore I attempted to show that military service for the christian is categorically disloyalty to Christ Jesus our LORD and King. The argument I gave ought to be the primary one as Christ Jesus alone is our King. Whose banner alone we fight under. Not a physical warfare but a spiritual one.

To comment briefly on the 'Non-Resistance Doctrine' of said groups who wrest the Scriptures here on this as well as on many others:

Non-Resistance doctrine ignores,refuses,and denies the possibility of overcoming evil with good in many a case. They appeal to and enjoin on their followers, in the name of God, never to resist injury to self or others. They make the word resist synonomous with evil as well as the word force to be equated with violence.

There are cases in which it would not only be allowable, but in the highest degree commendable, to restrain human beings by force.The common meaning of the term force is "strength, victor, might," whether physical or moral.

As moral force may be either good or evil, according to its kind, its object, its spirit, or its manner of application, so may physical force be good or evil, according to the same considerations. For this the 'Non-Resistance Doctrine' does not allow.

When an immoral person corrupts the mind of an innocent youth by bad examples, bad counsel,and other evil influences, in which there is no physical force, he exerts a moral force. When one influences another from the error of his ways, by good examples, counsels,and other purifying influences, he exerts a moral force.So when a man by physical force destroys or does harm to the life of another he exerts physical force. But in restraining a mentally deranged person from harming another,or exerting physical force to prevent a rapist or a murderer , or any similar act, is to use a gospelly lawful physical force.

Passivity in such cases and numerous others would be most evil in the sight of both God and man. We are commanded to love our neighbor as ourselves. The command to resist not an evil person does not cancel out the command to love our neighbor. Passivity in such and many other cases would be disobedience to the command of God.

Without a qualification of the words resist not an evil person, and not taken in its context many have concluded what was never intended. Therefore under the guise of christian doctrine harm is done to others while many passively look on calling it a christian virtue as they follow this false doctrine of men. Consequently God is disobeyed by not loving our neighbor.

It is personal revenge which is at the heart of this Gospel truth which our LORD forbids.

Matt 5:39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Rom 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.

1 Thess 5:15 See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone.

 2009/9/17 1:32Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

savannah, none of those groups are pacifists, they fight, just not with a sword against men, flesh and blood, they fight on their knees against the real enemy, that is the doctrine of non resistance.

another thing, when Paul speaks about government he is not speaking of a democratic people elected government, most likely he is speaking of the murderer and madman Nero who murdered thousands of christians, so when we say for example things about our government and military, that we can serve there, we need to recognize even serving saddam husseins government or stalins or hitlers can be used of Pauls words in romans 13. Not just ours.

I think many forget who and what kind of government Paul was speaking of, he was speaking of a christ persecuting hating antichrist government that God uses for his purposes and he controls. And he still does. No christian joined neros army, and no christian should join our military either. Enlist in Gods army! that is the call we should cry out.


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2009/9/17 2:10Profile





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