"I've heard people say "Jesus died for you sins past, present and future." Imagine a judge tell a thief "you are forgiven of all the purses you stole in the past, the ones you stole today, and the all of the ones you'll ...steal in the future." If that's insane in real life is just as insane in so called doctrine."- Leonard RavehillThe way I see it, only repentant sins are forgiven sins. God only pardons us of our sins after we forsake our sins. If a believer sins, they are not already forgiven, they need to repent and ask for forgiveness. Forgiveness in advance would be a license to sin.
Greetings truefaithsav: Amen!! I most definitely agree. This is a most unfortunate teaching among most who embrace the teaching of eternal security, or better know as, once saved, alway saved; once in grace, always in grace, etc. Not only this belief that all of our sins past, present, and future are already forgiven is a license for sin, but any kind of teaching on grace that allows individuals to continue is sin, or go back into sinful living with the promise of eternal life is also making the grace of God a license for immorality. The Lord Jesus did not teach that all of our sins past, present, and future are automatically forgiven. Remember the Lord's teaching concerning the condition upon which our future sins would be forgive? Jesus gave the parable of the wicked servant who was forgiven so much debt, because he cast himself on the mercy of his Lord, and his Lord had compassion on him and forgave him. Later on that day, he found a fellow servant who did not own him near as much as he was indebted to his Lord, but instead of forgiving his fellow servant, he took by the throat and had him cast into jail. The point of this parable Jesus gave was to teach us that if we forgive not those who are indebted to us, neither will your heavenly Father forgive you. Now if all of our future sins are already forgiven, this teaching by our Lord could not be eternal truth. Secondly, in first John chapter one it tells us that IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It is obvious that the apostle was refering to the Saints and not to unbelievers with the use of the plural pronoun, "us" including himself. Also "IF" is a condition and in this case represents the condition upon which we are to receive forgiveness of our sins. If you do not confess your sins, you will not be forgiven. If you are not forgiven, you will not be able to take your sins to heaven in the presents of a Holy God. If you will have not admittance into heaven because of unconfessed sin, there is only one place for you after you have died in your sins, and that is the lake of fire burning with brimstone which is the second death.
Friends,The forgiveness exhibited in the propitiation made by Christ is indeed a full satisfaction for the sins of his people (past, present and future). The cross of Christ is a historical event, not a hypothetical spiritual allegory. The propitiation was made 2000 years ago - it cannot be undone. It exists outside of us. It is an objective, historical atonement for the sin of Christ's sheep.The Scriptures also declare that God gives us a new heart, and Paul states that "God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us" (Romans 5:5). Our Lord taught us that he who is forgiven much loves much. So far is this amazing grace a license for sin, it is actually the only way to true holiness! Once we have tasted of this living water, we cannot return to muddy pools. The fact that we are fully forgiven of our sins by Christ's death and resurrection is the motivation to our righteous living. Those who have been justified and sanctified by our Lord will live lives of repentance, and will walk in His ways.[i]We believe that this true faith, being wrought in man by the hearing of the Word of God and the operation of the Holy Spirit, sanctifies him and makes him a new man, causing him to live a new life, and freeing him from the bondage of sin. Therefore it is so far from being true that this justifying faith makes men remiss in a pious and holy life, that on the contrary without it they would never do anything out of love to God, but only out of self-love or fear of damnation. Therefore it is impossible that this holy faith can be unfruitful in man; for we do not speak of a vain faith, but of such a faith which is called in Scripture a "faith working through love", which excites man to the practice of those works which God has commanded in His Word.[/i]We must ask ourselves: is the gospel I preach able to be charged with the same accusation that Paul's gospel was? [i]"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?"[/i] The fact that Paul was even anticipating this argument shows the greatness of the grace he preached. If there is no way anyone could charge us with the same thing, are we really preaching the gospel?With care in Christ,Taylor
Hi Taylor...Personally, I agree with what Brother Ravenhill is saying. While I do believe that the sacrifice of Christ was more than enough to handle all of the sins of this world (past, present and future), I also think that it is something of a stretch to say that it can and will be applied to people who choose to follow God and then turn back and live in sin.Taylor, you quoted Romans 6:1 and asked whether people could charge the same thing against us. Yet the very next verse (the answer to the question) is GOD FORBID (Romans 6:2). It says that we are dead in sin. To apply forgiveness to those who may have come to Christ and are yet LIVING IN SIN just doesn't seem plausible. In fact, this passage continues with yet another question: "[i]What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?[/i]" (Romans 6:15 NIV). Again, this is a question about whether or not we should continue to sin. The answer is obvious: "[i]By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obeywhether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?[/i]" The Word of God is clear that those who are living in sin will not be go unpunished. I think that we should always look at this issue through a different set of questions. Maybe we shouldn't be asking whether or not someone can possibly "lose their salvation," but whether it is possible to walk away from God after having truly sought Him, given your life to Him and Known Him. Regardless of whatever doctrinal defense you might have for those who fit this category (like "[i]well, they were never truly saved in the first place[/i]"), the Word of God seems quite clear about the end of a man who is living for self and sin. I have spoken of one of my sisters in the past. One of my older sisters was a very dedicated believer for most of her life. She appeared to have walked with God from her childhood. I lived around her, and I can testify that her faith was quite sincere. In fact, when I was an agnostic teenager, she used to plead with me (in tears) to come to Christ. She even would quietly come into my room when I was supposed to be sleeping and pray for me with tears. She led many people from school to Christ (including the guy that should would eventually marry several years later). She knew and testified firsthand of the supernatural ways in which God would take care of her and her husband. She has a little boy that she named Elijah -- because the name means "My God is the Lord!" My sister was the picture of a good and godly home for believers. My sister's husband is a good Christian man. He sought the Lord, prayed with his family, and provided well for them (spiritually and physically). In fact, they recently bought a nice home in the suburbs (near where he works at the Director of Admission at a local university). My sister used to use her life story to encourage many young girls about finding a godly young man and the benefits of Christian courtship and propriety. We always had a lot of fun at my sister's house! Last year, my sister suddenly changed. This change was quite sudden (over a period of a couple of months). Within months of us realizing something might be wrong, she left her godly Christian husband...to run away with a very disturbed young man. This young man is obsessed with vampires. My sister won't even listen to reason. Every time that I tried to talk with her, she would change the subject saying, "I don't want to talk about it." She admitted that this was her decision...and that she knew that she was walking away from God...but she didn't want to discuss it. She demanded a divorce, but her husband continued to resist her attempts. Her husband longed to take her back -- long after she had already left him. He waited for her...called out to her daily...yet she continued to ignore him. However, as time went on, my brother-in-law realized that she was not going to come back. As my sister continued to live in sin, he eventually consented to a divorce. This is heartbreaking to our family, my brother-in-law, my young nephew and his family. Why am I saying this? My sister is an example of a person who gave her heart to Jesus in honesty and sincerity...but walked away. She knows that I have people praying for her (even online). Oddly, she admitted that she knows that she is "lost." I agree. It would be unrealistic and unScriptural to suggest that she is saved while living in sin. I believe that it is difficult for a person who has met the Lord to walk away. They are, of course, led astray by their own lusts. However, I have known men of God (even pastors and evangelists) who went astray. Sometimes, it was due to major sins (like sexual sins), but I have even met men who slowly walked away too. "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." - II John 1:9
Chris,Thank you for your gracious response. I think we are talking past each other a little bit. I agree with you, we can not proclaim forgiveness to those who are living in sin. Since we may disagree on the nature of election and atonement, I may be approaching the issue a little different. I was simply saying for one of the regenerated, elect of God, all of their sins were atoned for on the cross.With care in Christ,taylor
Rom 3:22-25 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that [b]ARE PAST[/b], through the forbearance of God;
Thanks Taylor...Good point, and you are probably right. I think that most of us agree...even in regard to the underlying context for which the various camps defend their views. I must admit that I tend to approach it almost in a third person perspective. I don't care to dabble in the discussion very often, because it gets extraordinarily heated.
"I've heard people say "Jesus died for you sins past, present and future." Imagine a judge tell a thief "you are forgiven of all the purses you stole in the past, the ones you stole today, and the all of the ones you'll ...steal in the future." If that's insane in real life is just as insane in so called doctrine." - Leonard Ravenhill
only repentant sins are forgiven sins
"I've heard people say "Jesus died for you sins past, present and future." Imagine a judge tell a thief "you are forgiven of all the purses you stole in the past, the ones you stole today, and the all of the ones you'll ...steal in the future." If that's insane in real life is just as insane in so called doctrine."- Leonard Ravehill The way I see it, only repentant sins are forgiven sins. God only pardons us of our sins after we forsake our sins. If a believer sins, they are not already forgiven, they need to repent and ask for forgiveness. Forgiveness in advance would be a license to sin.