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hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 People do not drift toward Holiness

"People do not drift toward Holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort,

people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture,

faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance;

we drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; we drift toward superstition and call it faith.

We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch

toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism;

we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated." ~ D. A. Carson


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/8/29 5:45Profile









 Re: People do not drift toward Holiness

It still must be Spirit initiated. The desire to pray comes from the Holy Spirit because we don't know how to pray as we ought. If it's any of me, then I have somewhat to boast, but it's all Him. He speaks we obey. It's not what He speaks from the bible we obey, we can't do what the bible says unless we have the provision from the holy Spirit to accomplish it. We can't even love properly, that too must come from the Spirit. God said that He would put His statutes and law in our heart and He would CAUSE us to walk in them. It's not my cause, my zeal or my ambition, it is His good pleasure working in us. Every child that is born again by the Spirit of God prays, but he may not pray the way we want him to. We have a legalistic standard of weeping and crying and repenting and being on our knees all the time, but that may not be what the Spirit is doing in him right now. For you He is, but for someone else it is not. We are not robots on an assembly line, and we all don't laugh like Elmo. We don't even know how to repent, that too must be Spirit driven. We expect people to be filled with the Holy Spirit on par with and how it was done in the bible, however, it is God who decides when. For some it may take a few seconds while others it takes 15 years. We demand holiness, we demand godly living, you are not my God. God will bring us to perfection in His good time, not anyone else. If a Christian is flitting about, up and down, in and out, God is in complete control over His creation. All that come to Jesus, He will in no wise cast out. There will never be any that will be plucked out of His hand. But they can be plucked out of our hands because we don't know how the Father loves. We don't know His tolerance level. We don't know how He endures such things in this world. We think He should wipe out everyone here and now. But Jesus speaks back and says, "You don't know of what spirit you are of". In other words, you don't know what spirit your speaking those words from, they are definitely not from the Father.

Moses acted correctly, He stood in God's way when judgement was pronounced. God says, "Move out of the way that I may destroy this people in a moment", and Moses stands in His way to plead for the people.

And a greater than Moses is here, even Jesus, whom it was spoken of, "behold the lamb of God that TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD". We either believe that or we don't. It's here that we are divided between what we see and what God sees. God sees all humanity being atoned by the blood of Jesus and sin taken away and grace and truth abounds. God is in complete control over His creation.

All believers, all true believers will gravitate towards godliness, prayer and obedience to what God is saying to them today. It's not important that they obey what is written, if they did, they'd all be worse than their beginning.

Please don't misconstrue my words, yes, I did say, it's not important that we obey the WRITTEN word. To obey the written word will lead to legalism, to obey what the Spirit is saying is freedom. Even the Jews couldn't obey it, nor perform it, thus Jesus came and performed the jots and the tittles. All of what Paul wrote were guidelines, they were stepping stones to help you and I walk closer to Jesus. We still need the Holy Spirit to make the word of God a reality in our spirit that the word will perform it's good pleasure in us.

Those who understand the grace of God will know EXACTLY what I am trying to convey.

God Bless

 2009/8/29 10:35
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

i agree on most of what you have written, everything is from the spirit, even the creation was from the spirit, so we and all we can ever do for God will be from the spirit, but however, " He would put His statutes and law in our heart and He would CAUSE us to walk in them. " I do agree on this also, but , taking this verse to far will cause those who are falling and can not see God causing them to think they are not his, may be true in some cases but in others it will not, for some the original post are from the spirit and just what they need to hear, for other they will read it of the flesh and legalistic spirit will be feed and they will continue in their "straw" building.

everything is of the spirit, but some make it out as we can do nothing and just wait and suddenly the spirit will come and it will be automatic and happened without any work or problems or difficulties or labor from us.

this is not how the spirit worked in the Lord Jesus life, and i havent found it to work so in mine.

just adding here some thoughts...


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 2009/8/29 11:01Profile
AbideinHim
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Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3546
Louisiana

 Re: People do not drift toward Holiness

I agree with the initial post, and also agree with Deep Thiker that all things must be initiated by the Holy Spirit.

I believe that much of the problem lies in believers waiting for some spiritual feeling before they act, and not doing what they know to do by faith. It is easy for believers to say that they are waiting on God and then drift off into passivity.

God is not going to do it for us, He will supply the power and the grace, but we are the vessles that He moves through.

The Lord taught me through ministering in the prisons that my part was to stay prepared, but also to totally rely on the Holy Spirit and not on my notes or my studies.

Please consider the following scriptures: (1Timothy 4:7), (1Peter 1:13), (Philippians 2:12).

Mike


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Mike

 2009/8/29 12:55Profile









 Re:

Quote:
everything is of the spirit, but some make it out as we can do nothing and just wait and suddenly the spirit will come and it will be automatic and happened without any work or problems or difficulties or labour from us.

And good thoughts they are.

Those who think that way must have come in some other way. Because with great difficulty is the gate getting through and with trials the walk is narrow, few there be that find it. We were already singled out as a target before our initial salvation, and afterwards there have been more difficulties, but thanks be to God I didn't know I had a Saviour, but now old things are passed away behold all things have become new.

Now this is where we need great understanding. Coming out of Egypt was easy, but getting Egypt out of us is a work that only the Holy Spirit can do. "If you, by the Spirit make dead the deeds of the flesh you shall live". There is a cooperation on our part. The cooperation is this, is that we continue to believe that Jesus Christ paid for my justification by His death and suffering. This is very important. This is the FAITH that was once delivered unto the Church, that Christ died for our justification, there is nothing we can do to add anything more to that to come into favour with God. We are justified by faith through grace.

What does that have to do with mortification? Anything that we contribute to our mortification is taken away and burned up. Our cooperation has nothing to do with what I can do, it has everything to with what He has. It was God who told Abraham to take the wood bind it upon his son Isaac and to take him to a place that God chose to offer up the sacrifice. All his son did was obey him and walked with him. We must love our LORD with all our heart soul mind and our strength and by this we will endure whatever the holy Spirit does with us. At the end of the journey, there was nothing written about Isaac struggling with his Dad. Isaac must have learned to obey his father that whatever he did was for the best. This is our mortification, this is our obedience.

Believe me when I say that "trusting" Jesus to do the work in us is very trying. Our flesh, our enemy and the religious world constantly badger us to "do", to get us away from "waiting" on God to act. It's hard work staying the course by faith. Trusting in God to provide is hard work, trusting that He will come through irritates the flesh. The flesh looks for all kinds of reasons to excuse us from our trusting in God. There are so many distractions to distract us from our objective. We change when we trust in Him. Daniel trusted in God. He was under the care and captivity of Babylon. There was no temple, there was no works to conduct, but it was said that Daniel prayed 3 times a day. It doesn't say that Daniel asked for wisdom but we know that he was a wise man and that He was greatly beloved by God. Was it his works of prayer time? No, it was His love for his God that conveyed the his incense to the throne room of God's palace on high.

God Bless

 2009/8/29 15:12
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3546
Louisiana

 Re:

I believe that this scripture brings a good balance to our discussion.

But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. (1 Corinthians 15:10)

Who is doing the laboring here? It is the Apostle Paul.

How is he doing it? By the grace of God.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live: yet not I but Christ lives in me: and the life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." (Galatians 2:20).

Just as Christ died for us so that we would not have to die because of our sin, He is now living in us so that He can live His life through us.

Our part is to apprehend Christ by faith. We no longer have to strive to live the Christian life, to be righteous, to be humble, because Christ has become our righeousness. He is our humility. He has become to us everything that we need to live the Christian life.

Mike


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Mike

 2009/8/29 15:47Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re: People do not drift toward Holiness

good words brethren, i found some more scriptures i thought had connection with this, also with seeing and laboring for the holiness in others, Paul writes

Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.
(Col 1:28-29 NKJ)

but as deepthinker wrote, and we should be aware of, some labor can be in vain, For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain. (1Th 3:5 NKJ)

So as with all things, there is a balance, and i think we need to find it for our lifes and be open to Gods spirit, what may be his working in me may not be the same for another brother.

God bless


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/8/29 16:03Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3546
Louisiana

 Re:

From the scriptures that you brothers have shared, it is plain to see that as co-laoborers with Jesus Christ, there is a labor that we are to enter into, but it is not done by the strength of the flesh, but according the ability and strenth that the Holy Spirit gives.

The problem comes in when we attempt to do the work of God in our own strength without total reliance on Him. "Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:3).

Hebrew 4 gives us the way that we cease from our own works is by entering into the rest of God. (Hebrews 4:10). The next verse says that we are to labor to enter into that rest. (Hebrews 4:11). In the Greek that word labor means -- endeavour, do diligence, be diligent, give diligence,
be forward, labour, study, hasten, to exert one's self.

The things of God are not just going to fall on us like a apple off of a tree. If we seek God with all of our hearts, then we shall find Him.

Mike



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Mike

 2009/8/29 19:21Profile





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