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janneju
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Joined: 2004/8/26
Posts: 29


 labels

In the light of God's Word, do you think as Christians, we should refer to other Christians as "addicts"? I am speaking of Christians who have either backslidden etc. or are struggling with a besetting sin.

 2004/9/11 1:40Profile
seekinggod
Member



Joined: 2004/3/3
Posts: 54
Fond du Lac, WI

 Re: labels

I'm not sure if I understand your question completely. From the wording, I assume you are stating that those struggling with this sin are addicted to it?

We all are addicted to sin. I would even go so far to say that most Christians in church are addicted to TV in the same way a drug addict is addicted to drugs.

I think as Christians, if we see a brother or sister falling away from Christ we need to intercede in prayer and action. We need to go to them and listen to where they are at. If that's not possible, pray. If that IS possible, pray.

Should we refer to them as "addicts". Honestly, I don't think the words we use in description for these situations amount to anything of importance.

If one is addicted to this sin, yes, they are an addict. Should we call another an addict to their face? Well, probably not. Confronting them about their walk with Christ shouldn't start with an attack.

The point is to see where our brother and sisters are. The use of the right words are critical in these situations, and cannot be done without the Lord.

I'm not sure if I am answering the question you are asking, so forgive me if I missed the bigger point.


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Steve

 2004/9/11 7:11Profile
Spitfire
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Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633


 Re: labels

Hi Jannyju. I'm gonna ask a question that takes this thing one step further. Can you be an addict and be a Christian? If not, why would we call a Christian an addict? And if so, what is a Christian? Just wondering? An addict, to me, is someone who is still using their drug of choice. I see drug use as idol worship. Idol worship means that Jehovah is not my God. I see a Christian as someone who is following Christ. As a former addict myself, I feel pretty qualified to say this. I would probably be hostile if someone called me an addict, because I'm not an addict anymore. If I were still habitually using drugs, I wouldn't call myself "Christian". I wonder if people still called Paul a murderer? I bet some did. It would be wrong of me to get hostile over being called an addict.I would probably just think, it used to be a fact, but the truth is, I'm a Christian now. Love, Dian.

 2004/9/11 7:58Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Hi Jannyju. I'm gonna ask a question that takes this thing one step further. Can you be an addict and be a Christian?


Amen if you have not been set free from sin then it can be asked are you really a Chrisitan have you really been bornagain and have all things become new? I have had besetting sins in my life but I was never comfortable in my sins and conviction got worse and worse until I gave it up to God and he brought freedom. We have to get desperate and desire God and heavenely things as much as any wordly things or its no surprise that the things of earth would catch you in its web.


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 2004/9/11 9:35Profile
seekinggod
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Joined: 2004/3/3
Posts: 54
Fond du Lac, WI

 Re:

Many Christian have besetting sins they don't consider to be bestting, because they are culturally acceptable idols.

The average Christian watches TV for 9 years of his life. This is an accurate statistic, compiled by Barna I believe. I would consider this an idol, and a dangerous and harmful sin.

There are many other sins we could name.

To say people with these sins aren't Christians, or aren't following Christ with a sincere heart is shaky ground. The Lord unveils things on His time, and for His Glory.

It may take years and years to a sincere disciple to see all the major idols.

How many of us worship idols, but because they are cultural norms, don't think twice about them?

With that said, all addictions are stuggles. We all know this. The true test is if the addict is in prayer and the Word, sitting at Christ's feet seeking to remove this sin from their lives.

There may be the chance they don't see the addiction as a problem. Or maybe they do, but are feeling to much shame to ask the Lord for help.


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Steve

 2004/9/11 10:44Profile
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Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633


 Re: besetting sins

Where does this term, "besetting sins", come from? Is that Biblical? Are they somehow different than the ones that send you to hell? I'm not trying to be provocative. I'm not completely sure of the answer to the question about whether or not someone is a Christian if they continue in sin, because I realize we all continue to sin. It's one thing to continue to sin, it's quite another to continue in sin. I'm not even sure what I believe about my own salvation to be honest. It seems like I am being saved everyday. I think I am somewhat a Calvinist(even though I'm not an expert on what that is). I now believe, after years of being of the school that God loves everyone and wants everyone to be saved, I now believe (I just repeated myself) that God has chosen before time who will be his children. No one can come to him unless he draws them. Some he doesn't draw. And if this is true, then I have been being saved since before I was born. The process of my life, has dips and curves which would betray that. But, God is the author and finisher of my faith. I will say this: Jesus said the way is narrow and only a few ever find it. He also said many will stand before him on that day thinking they were making it and find out they were not. I'm sure that just saying the sinner's prayer doesn't make you saved. There's way too many on that road for that to be the road. Salvation is for all who believe. I suppose the real question is: What is believing? My definition is:Trusting in, clinging to, relying on Jesus Christ. How can I be doing that if I'm trusting in, clinging to, and relying on some drug? We cannot have two masters. Still loving ya'll. Dian.

 2004/9/11 13:23Profile
Gideons
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Joined: 2003/9/16
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Virginia

 Re: Great question

Great question and frankly I'm confused on this as well. If we truly love Jesus, then we will hate sin in our own hearts. As you said, it's more than praying the sinner's prayer but is literally laying down everything day to day to follow Jesus.

I know some of the theology but am unconvinced it's all correct as I've understood it. I'm with you, I feel as though I'm being saved. Frankly I'm still struggling with understanding this because it's much different than I was taught.

In terms of the concept of "besetting sin" it comes from these Hebrews 12:1-4.

Here's an excellent article I found on this.

Posted, December 11, 1998
Used, December 13, 1998 (Research has been retained here, but will be edited out for preaching.)

Besetting Sins
Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
The Christian life is presented throughout Scripture as a war:

1) The war is not physical, but eaning that spiritual, mboth the war and the victory must take place in our spirit. (2 Cor. 10:4.)

2) Success in the war will result in an incorruptible crown. (1 Cor. 9:25.)

3) Victory in the war will not come from human effort. The harder we try to obtain victory in our own strength, the more defeat we face. (Zech. 4:6.) In fact, we find that God places his curse upon those who attempt to find the victory outside of himself. (Jer. 17:5.)

4) The enemy in this war was without in the Old Testament; he was a literal enemy who was intent on cutting off the head; he was subdued with a sword by cutting off his head. (Ps. 33, 44:1-8.) However, in the New Testament, the enemy is within, and can only be subdued with the spiritual sword, the Sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

A few weeks ago, I preached a message on

Psalms 139, vv. 23, 24, Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. (Jer. 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.)

If you have ever prayed that prayer in the hope that the Lord would indeed search your heart, then the Lord has done that. And what he has shown was not a nice sight. The Spirit of God confronts us with our sins.

sin which doth so easily beset us...

SIN.

A besetting sin can be understood in several ways. We will consider it as a particular sin that has an especially strong hold upon us.

Envy, bitterness, pride, lust, covetousness, anger, malice, gossip, worry, swearing, rebellion against proper authority; actually, all the works of the flesh.

The list of sins is endless, and can be unique for each person. My besetting sin will probably not be the same as yours, but there is one present in each of us that stands out and that is particularly strong.

If you are alive today and trying to do anything for the Lord, there is a particular sin that will come to mind. The enemy may use that particular sin to convince us that we are unworthy to serve the Lord.

BESET.

The word, beset, means skillfully surrounds. This sin is like an army: it surrounds us, and continually attacks us from every side. Everywhere we look, there it is. No matter what we try to do, it is continually there, seeking to overcome us. If it cannot control us, at the very least, it corrupt everything we do.

The besetting sin will not stand out unless we really desire to serve God, and seriously seek his face. Those who are content with where they are and who they are as a Christian will have no problem with a besetting sin. Those who are content with being a dead fish floating downstream to heaven will not know what I am talking about here. Notice Hebrews 12 comes after chapter 11, and the roll call of faith. 11 lists past saints who were willing to pay the price to put feet to their faith. Those who are not willing to pay the price to follow in the pattern left by Christ (v. 2) will not have problems with Hebrews 12:1. Those who are not willing to run the race as described in chapter 11 will not have the terrible warfare spoken of in 11:1. Only those who are concerned about the glory of God and his name and who are wanting to do something about it will find a strong besetting sin. Only those who are serious about conquering sin in their lives will know what I am talking of.

If we are willing to examine ourselves to find where we fall short of what God wants us to be, he will show us from the word of God.

PRAYER

Psalms 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. (Jer. 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.)

This is a prayer of self-examination:

1) Honest self-examination does not hide in a crowd. It is not a general confession of sin. WE ALL SIN, AND I CONFESS IS SIN.

A criminal can easily lose himself in a crowd. Sins must be confronted individually. I HAVE SINNED, AND THIS IS MY SIN that I must continually battle. Many pins together present a smooth surface; one by itself will stick.

MINE INIQUITIES HAVE TAKEN HOLD UPON ME, SO THAT I AM UNABLE TO LOOK UP; THEY ARE MORE THAN THE HAIRS OF MINE HEAD: THEREFORE MY HEART FAILETH ME. BE PLEASED O LORD, TO DELIVER ME: O LORD MAKE HASTE TO HELP ME

2) Honest self-examination discovers secret sins, and confesses those sins:

Psalms 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

Notice that David did not blame his sin on the woman who intentionally took off her cloths in his view. He took full responsibility for what he did, and did not try to pass off the blame on anyone else.

The Prodigal son, in the far country, experienced grief, shame and remorse. (Luke 15:11ff.) His remorse over his sin caused lead to: 1) confession, 2) humility, 3) return. He offered no excuse for his sins.

His spirit was rent, torn and tattered. He was sincerely contrite and humbled. He was READY TO TAKE THE LOWEST PLACE in his father's house, the place of a hired servant or slave.

3) Self-examination reveals the inmost secrets of the heart, and bows in humility before God, and takes full responsibility. Self-examination must avoid the other extreme -- that is, making ourselves worse than we are. This will not please the Father. God is the God of truth; we cannot please him by being too hard (worse than we are) nor too soft (not as bad as we are) on ourselves; we must be toward ourselves according to the truth of God's word.

Psalms 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

But we cannot meditate on that sin that so easily controls us. We must not forget that we are Christians. As Christians we must not avoid extremes: On one hand, we may think lightly of sin, and regard confession as a matter of routine. On the other hand, we may spend our time in self-examination, content to go on day to day thinking about and confessing that sin with no victory over that sin.

Certainly, the power of sin is not yet completely broken in us, so we must be on continual guard. But we deny God's grace if we know only God's mercy to pardon sin, but we do not know his living grace that continually renews us. Simply acknowledging and confessing that besetting sin allows the burden of that sin to become heavier and heavier.

There are two dangers, quite opposite in character, which are liable to confront us as we engage in the practice of confession. On the one hand, there is the danger to regard confession as a mere matter of routine, and, in consequence, to think lightly of sin, on the other hand, we may be tempted to indulge in morbid self-examination. In both cases the great truth has been forgotten that confession is of no use unless we are ready to forsake the sins we own. If we are content to go on day after day, as many do, acknowledging the same sins without breaking loose from them, conscience will be dulled, and we shall become too familiar with sin to see its hatefulness in God's sight. If on the other hand we are forever bemoaning our besetting sins and allowing ourselves daily to sink lower under the burden of them, we are surely dishonouring God, who is bidding us rise up from our faces to put away the accursed thing from amongst us. If, however, we forsake the sin which we confess, and daily prove the power of God to deliver us, and believe His word, "Sin shall not have dominion over you," confession may be the path to untold blessing. (Christian doctrine of Prayer, Hastings, pp 77, 78.)
Meditating on our sins and continually confessing them without breaking loose from them dishonours God. And the LORD said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face? (Josh. 7:10.) The meditation must be on the daily power of God's grace over that sin that so easily besets us. Our strength and joy in the Lord comes from meditating on his power over sin, not from meditating on how far short we come from what we should be for the Lord.
It is of the first importance that in all the exercises of the secret chamber we should yield ourselves to the blessed influences of the Comforter, by whom alone we are enabled to pray with acceptance. An important caution in regard to this has been noted by Ralph Erskine. In his diary he writes, under the date, Jan. 23, 1733: "This morning . . . I was quickened in prayer, and strengthened to hope in the Lord. At the beginning of my prayer I discerned a lively frame in asserting a God in Christ to be the fountain of my life, the strength of my life, the joy of my life; and that I had no life that deserved that name, unless He Himself were my life. But here, checking myself with reflections upon my own sinfulness vileness, and corruption, I began to acknowledge my wickedness, but for the time the sweetness of frame failed me, and wore off. Whence, I think, I may gather this lesson, that no sweet influence of the Spirit ought to be checked upon presence of getting a frame better founded upon humiliation; otherwise the Lord may be provoked to withdraw." When Thomas Boston found himself in danger of giving way to vain-glory, he took a look at his black feet. We may well do the same, but never so as to lose our assurance of sonship, or our sense of the preciousness of Christ. As Rutherford reminds us "There is no law-music in heaven: there all their song is, 'Worthy is the Lamb'." And the blood of ransom has atoned for all sins. (Prayer, Hastings.)
Notice David's cry:
Psalms 130:1 Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O LORD. 2 Lord, hear my voice: let thine ears be attentive to the voice of my supplications. 3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? 4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared. 5 I wait for the LORD, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope. 6 My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning: I say, more than they that watch for the morning. 7 Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption. 8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

David cried unto the Lord and confessed his sins. He was confident the Lord heard him, and forgave him of his sins, for with the Lord there is mercy and plenteous redemption. Then David expresses this confidence:

And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

David looked forward to the redemption by the Lord Jesus Christ. That redemption not only delivers from the punishment deserved by sin, but it includes breaking the power and dominion of sin from the lives of the redeemed.

Christ redeemed, purchased, us with his blood not only from the punishment deserved by sin, but from the power of sin from over us. He purchased us as one would purchase a slave in a slave market. However, "slavery" to our new Master is not forced. Even after the purchase is made (through faith in him), he gives "free will" to those he purchased, so they will serve him willingly. (Lk. 1:72-75.)

INIQUITIES :

Eyes --- can we look without iniquity (lust, covetousness)?

Ears --- can we listen without iniquity entering?

Lips --- can we speak without iniquity (the tongue always bridled, without gossip, carnal conversation, angry words at home, no expressions that are unbecoming to saints)?

Thoughts --- can we think without iniquity (evil suggestions, workings of the mind)?

Imaginations --- can we avoid carnal, vile and sensual imaginations?

Memory --- can we not remember the sins of our past?

Feeling --- can we avoid the feeling of pride of heart, covetousness, sensuality, hypocrisy, worry, and self-righteousness?

Those who think they can avoid these things are clearly self-deceived. The promise is that the Lord will subdue these sins for those who freely confess their sins and cast themselves upon his mercy. The Lord redeems his people by his blood from the power of their unique besetting sin.

Micah 7:18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy. 19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

Subdue, bring under bondage, keep under, force.

This verb and its derivative occur fifteen times in the OT. It is evidently related to Akkadian kabasu "to tread down," and Arabic kabasa "to knead, stamp, press" (cf. also Arabic kabasa "to seize with the hand"). In the OT it means "to make to serve, by force if necessary."
Despite recent interpretations of Gen 1:28 which have tried to make "subdue" mean a responsibility for building up, it is obvious from an overall study of the word's usage that this is not so. kabash assumes that the party being subdued is hostile to the subduer, necessitating some sort of coercion if the subduing is to take place. Thus the word connotes "rape" in Est 7:8, or the conquest of the Canaanites in Num 32:22, 29; Josh 18:1; I Chr 22:18. In II Chr 28:10; Neh 5:5; Jer 34:11, 16 it refers to forced servitude.
Therefore "subdue" in Gen 1:28 implies that creation will not do man's bidding gladly or easily and that man must now bring creation into submission by main strength. It is not to rule man. However, there is a twistedness in humanity which causes us to perform such a task with fierce and destructive delight. Try as we might, we cannot subdue this. But it can be subdued and this is the promise of Mic 7:10, "He will subdue our iniquities. (TWOT, 951, 952.)
The Christian life is presented throughout Scripture as a war. That besetting sin is continually trying to conquer us in our heart, in our thinking and in our emotions. Micah promises that the Lord Jesus will subdue our iniquities. That is, the Lord Jesus will subdue that besetting sin in the lives of the redeemed. Though our iniquities do not want to be subdued and they will fight to the bitter end (of our life) to keep from being subdued, the Lord will do (has done) that very thing by his blood of redemption. He "bought" us from the power of those iniquities.
He will subdue our iniquities] By force and violence (as the word signifieth), subjugabit, pessundabit, conculcabit. Sin is sturdy, and will rebel where it cannot reign. It hath a strong heart, and will not easily yield. But yield it shall, for God will subdue it. And this is a further favour (as every former is a pledge of a future). To pardon of sin God will add power against sin; to justification by Christ's merit, sanctification by his Spirit; he will let out the life-blood of sin, and lay it a dying at our feet; he will tread Satan with all his black train under our feet shortly, Rom. xvi. 20. He will not only turn us again, but turn his hand upon us, and purely purge away our dross, and take away all our tin, Isa. i. 25. In fine, he will so mortify the deeds of the body by his Spirit, that sin shall not have dominion over us, Rom. vi. 14, shall not play Rex in us; the traveller shall not become the man of the house, as Nathan's parable speaketh.
And thou wilt cast all their sins into the bottom of the sea] Wherehence they shall never be buoyed up again. Thus the prophet, by an insinuating apostrophe, turneth himself to God, and speaketh with much confidence. Such is the nature of true faith, sc. to grow upon God, and, as I may so say, to encroach; as :Moses did, :Exod. xxxiii. 12,13; xxxiv. 10; and as David did, 1 Chron. xvii. 23, &c. See how he improves God's promise, and works upon it, ver. 24, 25, he goes over it again, and yet still encroacheth; and the effect was good, chap. xviii. We hinder ourselves of much happiness by a sinful shamefacedness. Let us come boldly to the throne of grace, Heb. iv. 16; so shall we see our sins, as Israel did the Egyptians did, dead on the shore. (John Trapp [1601-1689], IV.306, 307.)
No matter how strong that besetting sin is in the lives of the redeemed, it must yield to the victory of Christ.
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

The enemy of our souls will encourage the redeemed to examine themselves. (2 Cor. 13:5.) The enemy of our souls will encourage the redeemed to face up to their sins and how short they are from the holiness required of them by the Heavenly Father.

The enemy of our souls will encourage the redeemed to meditate on and confess those sins to God and even claim forgiveness for those sins.

The problem is that the enemy will urge us to continue to meditate on and confess those sins over and over.

His goal is to keep us from claiming our victory in Christ over the sin that so easily besets us. He wants us to keep our minds on our sins; he wants us to keep confessing those sins and worrying about them. If he can do that, the enemy knows we will be under the heavy burden of guilt. He knows that we will not have the joy and peace and confidence that belongs to the redeemed through Christ.

Instead, we must cast ourselves upon the mercy of the Lord to subdue them for us. A primary purpose of our redemption is the redemption from the present power of sin.

1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Thus it undermines the power of redemption when we meditate on our sins and failures, even if that remembrance is to confess those things to God. We confess our sins to the Lord in order to claim his conquest over our iniquities. We must not meditate on our sins and iniquities, but we must meditate on Christ's victory over the sin which doth so easily beset us.

Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.




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Ed Pugh

 2004/9/11 14:32Profile
Gideons
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 474
Virginia

 Re: Here's a link from Brother Dave Wilkerson

Here's a TSC newsletter on besetting sin:
http://www.tscpulpitseries.org/english/undated/tsvictry.html.

Here's a quick summary but I would suggest reading the entire article:
1. I must learn to hunger for holiness
and to hate my besetting sin!
2. I must be convinced God loves me in spite of my sin!
3. I must accept the loving help of my
Father in resisting and overcoming. The only part I can play in this war is to believe God will bring me out of the battle victoriously.
4. Finally- When The Sin In Me Is Conquered,
All My Other Enemies Must Flee.

Encouraging words from Brother Dave! Praise God, I feel a bit lighter.


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Ed Pugh

 2004/9/11 14:46Profile
seekinggod
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Joined: 2004/3/3
Posts: 54
Fond du Lac, WI

 Re:

Quote:
Where does this term, "besetting sins", come from? Is that Biblical?



Good question. I do not know if it is Biblical. Please excuse my ignorance. I assumed by context that a besetting sin was a major, blatant and obvious sin that was repeated by someone despite knowledge of how vile it was in the eyes of God. Drug addiction, rape or murder, physical abuse of a spouse, pornogtraphy addiction,etc.

Having said this, I know my uneducated definition falls short. All sin is vile in the eyes of God.

That is why I made the connection between an alcohol addict and a TV addict. Sin is sin is sin. Which is worse: the drug addict who is a Christian and wants to stop, or the TV addict who spends 9 years of his life watching re-runs?

The only answer I have regarding anything is this:

Is Christ your life? Is Christ your passion? Are you sitting at Christ's feet in prayer and with the Word, or are you perpetually making up a false Christ who doesn't require you to give up anything and seek out the removal of sin from your life?

As the Apostle Paul said: Why do I do the things

Quote:
For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do. - [i]Romans 7:19[/i]



The Dictionary.com definition of "besetting" is "Constantly troubling or attacking."

To me, all sin is besetting. I am constantly attacked to lust, to lie, and to ignore God's Word and do something else.

So besetting seems to be taking on the context of a "really" big sin that re-occurs. Once again, this seems redundant when lookign at the nature of sin. All sin is evil in the eyes of God...there are no degrees. Correct me if I am wrong. I am no theologian, and sure I am missing some point or feature of "besetting".

Is it Biblical, or a some doctrine or term from church history?


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Steve

 2004/9/11 15:34Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: labels

Hi all! I just got back from my first Nouthetic Counseling training seminar (actually this one focused on parenting) but still learned alot about putting off the old man and putting on the new - which actually equals total surrender.

They brought up the subject of AA and being labeled an alcoholic. The reason they disuade Christians from going to AA instead of getting true biblical counseling is because from the first day until the last day you go (which could be 10 years down the road) you are trained to say 'Hi, I am 'John', and I'm an alcoholic." Do they not believe that you can change? Do they only believe that you can keep your flesh at bay day by day? Through Christ, you can be changed from the inside out. You can learn to surrender everything, to put on the new man and walk by the Spirit.

I was an addict to a few things only 3 years ago. I am changed now and do not still call myself an addict. I use to be bullimic and had other destructive habits involving my body image- yet now I am changed - completely gutted out, renovated- and now I know I am not bulimic or anything else. I am a totally new creation because I let God break me down, tear up the old man and start over. Praise God!

I learned so many wonderful ways of explaining and expressing what it means to be "renewed in your thinking"- putting off the old man from this conference and I am looking forward to the next training sessions in October.

This is a couple of things I learned:

God wants us to be changing to be more like His Son by putting off the old man and putting on the new man as a result of [b]renewed thinking[/b].

The major battleground for lasting change is between the ears! (the mind) The mind is synonymous with the HEART in the New Testament and is to be viewed as the center of thought, understanding, belief, motives and action. So the Mind=Heart= Inner man.

When we talk about the mind being renewed, it means to be rejuvenated; to be [b]renovated[/b]. Like if you had a kitchen that had to be renovated, what would you do first? Gut it out, get rid of everything to start from scratch. This is [b]not[/b] remodeling. Remodeling is just fixing up, making it look a little better and nicer. We don't want a half way job done here. :)

Also : those people with habits: renewed thinking will lead to putting off the old man and putting on the new man. Someone cannot simply BREAK a habit; he must REPLACE it.

The Old self or man is #1 feeling oriented and motivated by lusts and desires (not only sexual by any means here)

The new self or man is #1 scripture oriented and motivated by the love of Christ.

This equals renewed thinking.

One thing they really stressed was not to focus on the "putting off" so much as the "putting on". If we focus on the "putting on", or the "more of Him" or letting Christ rule completely in us- these behaviors will replace the "old man" or you will become "less of you". If you focus on the putting off, like "I have to stop doing such and such"... it won't happen. It will only be temporal at best.- Again, you simply can't break a habit, you have to replace it!

To me this putting off the old man really just equals total and complete abndonment to Christ and letting Him renew your mind/heart.

Anyway, just thought i'd throw these out there. :-)

Anyone interested in this Nouthetic Counseling :[url=www.nanc.org]www.nanc.org[/url]

In Him, Chanin


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Chanin

 2004/9/11 20:37Profile





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