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anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
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 A question about sin and our new nature?

I once was told by someone that since they were born again they never sin. Not that they don't actually sin in life. But, it is only their old nature and man which sins and since they are no longer the old man they never sin. The new nature which they have never sin and they are that new man therefore they never sin. Any thoughts?

 2009/8/20 20:47Profile









 Re: A question about sin and our new nature?

Anonymity, it's a real pity that we're surrounded by lies on every side. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8).

 2009/8/21 5:36









 Re: A question about sin and our new nature?

Quote:
Any thoughts?

I recommend reading 1 John very slowly, with John chapters 4, 15 & 16 in mind, and, Matthew 3:8 - 12, especially, v10: And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the tree[u]s[/u]: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

If the axe has been laid to the root of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in you, then that tree should not be able to crop like it used to. There should be more and more evidence that it's drawing its sustenance from a new source, which brings forth the fruit of the Spirit. However, the battle for the renewing of the mind continues, and our Adversary likes nothing more than to lie in our ears all the time.

3 John 1:3, 4. What does this mean for the person walking [u]in truth[/u]? I think this is where 1 John comes in.

I John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins;

[Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, [b]in turning away every one of you from his iniquities[/b] (Peter speaking) Rom 11:26 ... There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, [b]and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob[/b] (Paul speaking) These are both slightly different from Isa 59:20, where the prophet (quite reasonably, in my opinion) states that the person who will be delivered is [b]one who has turned away from his sin[/b]. My experience is, that one can victory over sin if one wants it. God understands the battle, and He sees our hearts, and Paul tells us there is always a way to escape, if we will take it. Will we?]

1 John 3:5 contd. ... and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: [b]whosoever sinneth hath not seen him[/b] [u]neither known him[/u].



It's all [i][b]very[/b][/i] challenging!

 2009/8/21 6:32
enid
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Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2667
Nottingham, England

 Re: A question about sin and our new nature?


The thing is, if you went before a court of law, for a crime, and said it wasn't you but your old nature, they'd have every right to lock you up and throw away the key, for being insane.

However, the word of God tells us that we are a new creation, old things have passed away..2 Cor 5v17.

If the old has passed, why do we still need or want to be involved with it?

There are a lot of lies around that Christians accept, because it fits well with their own desires, whether those desires are godly or not.

But, let us not be given over to deception or self-deception.

We have God's word, and it tells us we are without excuse, Rom 1v20.

God help us to be honest, with ourselves and God.

 2009/8/21 6:34Profile
AbideinHim
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Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3537
Louisiana

 Re: A question about sin and our new nature?

The truth of the matter is that our old sin nature has already been dealt with at the cross. When Christ died we died in Him. Now, we have been made a new creation in Christ Jesus, and we are to reckon ourselves dead unto sin and alive unto God. (Romans 6:6), (Romans 6:11)

A new Christian needs to be taught these facts from the beginning, so that he can know that it is not neccessary that he sins every day. He also needs to know that if he does sin, that there is an advocate that he can go to for cleansing, so that his fellowship can be restored. (1John 2:1)

There is always a possibility of a Christian walking after the flesh and sinning, but it is not something that is inevitable. A new Christian needs to know that not only is forgiveness of sin provided at salvation, but so is deliverance from sin.

The brother that said that he never sins since he became a Christian does not know himself. He will one day be tried and tested and find out that outside of Christ there is no good thing in him.

The cross of Christ must be taken up on a daily basis because there is always the possibility of walking after the flesh and sinning.

If we would walk in the Spirit 24 hours a day, seven days a week, then there would be no sin, but how many Christians are doing this? (Galatians 5:16).

Only Christ can keep us from falling. It is only by the grace of God that we can stand. The Word of God says that "Sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:14).

" For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2).


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Mike

 2009/8/21 8:03Profile
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Thanks you all for your replies and answers,

well here's the thing.

I don't think the doctrine was motivated by sin.

I think it was his logic.

He is not saying that he never sins in life.

But, that in real spiritual reality which really matters he never sins.

Because although his old man does sin his new man never does.

And since he is not any longer the old nature which sins he therefore no longer sins.

Now everything he does is perfect because his new nature which he is is perfect.

Even though his old nature does sin.

I also do not think he is a flagrant sinner.

So, that is what I am trying to figure out.


Now, a couple thoughts that I have had is:

Question
Well, if you are your new nature and it never sins then why does it not just take over and conquer the old man?

Answer
Because the new man is weak and the flesh takes over.

Question
Well why doesn't the new nature build itself up and take over since it's perfect?

Answer
No answer so far


 2009/8/21 14:58Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

We can sin, but we don't have to.
We may never sin again; John says this is the the reason that he wrote his first letter, but if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father...(1John 2:1)

Quote:
paulmcg1 wrote:
Anonymity, it's a real pity that we're surrounded by lies on every side. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8).

Don't take that verse out of context.

1. This passage must always be looked at in context. The entire book of John must be consulted, especially verses 1:7-10, 2:1. Those who isolate this passage usually twist its meaning to be contrary to the rest of the epistle which is about moral perfection. The meaning of a verse is always lost or misunderstood when scripture isolation is practiced. The immediately surrounding context gives us much clarity into this verse.

2. The phrase, "have no sin" in verse 8 could mean two things. It could mean "have no sin" in your present conduct, or it could mean "have no sin" on your record. Verse 10 is very clear that John is talking about those who deny having any disobedience on their record by saying "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." None can deny that they have sinned or disobeyed in the past, but Christians can say that they presently obey God.

3. Verse 7 and 9 promise, not merely the pardon of sin, but also cleansing from sin. There is a proper distinction made between forgiveness and cleansing, “to forgive us our sins, AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” These passages promise not only forgiveness of sin but also freedom from sin. They promise freedom, not merely from some sins, but freedom from "all" sins, "to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness".

4. The man spoken of in verse 8 is the man who had not yet experienced verse 9. That is, the deceived man who denies having any sin is the one who has not yet confessed their sins, been forgiven of their sins, and has had their sins cleansed out of their life. Verse 8 is directed to, or specifically talking about, the man who has not yet been forgiven and cleansed as described in verse 9. Verse 9 is written as the solution to the sin described in verse 8.

5. If 1:8 means that nobody can state that Jesus Christ has cleansed them from all sin, then saying that you have experienced 1:9 makes you a liar. This interpretation of 1:8 would mean that believing 1:9 would make you “deceived”.

6. If "have no sin" means that no Christian can state as Paul did that we are presently "free from sin" (Romans 6:22), then John immediately contradicts his purpose as stated in 2:1, "these things write I unto you, that ye sin not." This interpretation would mean that John was writing this epistle so that we would “deceive ourselves” and so that “the truth” would not be “in us”. Why would John write them so that they “sin not” if when they believe that they “sin not” they are simply “deceived” without “the truth”?

7. If 1:8 means that you are a liar if you claim to presently keep God's commandments, then 2:3-4 is a total contradiction. These passages state that "we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." Such an interpretation would amount to this: if you claim to keep God's commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you (1:8), but if you claim to know God but do not keep His commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you (2:4). So the truth would not be in the one who claims to keep God's commandments, and the truth would not be in the one who says they know God yet breaks His commandments. Then the only logical conclusion would be that nobody knows God, if the Bible teaches that everyone presently breaks God’s commandments and you cannot know God if you presently break His commandments.

8. If 1:8 means that we all always have sin in our lives, then we do not "abideth in him" and have "not seen him, neither known him" according to 3:6, we are all "of the devil" according to 3:8, and we have not been born of God according to 3:9.

9. If 1:8 means that you are a liar if you state that you no longer break God's commandments, then the Apostle John is a liar because he says "we keep his commandments and do those things that are pleasing in his sight" in 3:22. According to the popular interpretation of 1:8, this would make the Apostle “deceived”, it would mean that the Apostle was without “the truth” because he claimed to “keep his commandments”.

10. The difference between the children of God and the children of the devil, is that the children of God do what is righteous, but the children of the devil commit sin, according to 3:8-10. This could not be a proper or accurate distinction if 1:8 means that everyone converted or not has present disobedience in their life.

11. The meaning of this passage is clear: If a man claims that they have never sinned, that they have no sin on their record, they are deceived. But if they confess that they have sinned, their sin can be both forgiven and cleansed out of their lives, so that they will walk in holiness and righteousness.

 2009/8/21 15:36Profile
elected
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Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Re:


This doctrine of 2 natures existing at the same time in the christians is foreign to the New Testament teaching.Where in the bible does it say that old nature and the new nature live at the same time with the christian believer?

This dualistic teaching i believe came with Augustin to the church. Our nature is either depraved or holy there is no middle ground, even if that was possible for a christian two live with 2 natures inside him that teaching is carnal and not for mature christians.


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Redi

 2009/8/21 15:39Profile
AbideinHim
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Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3537
Louisiana

 Re:


"Question
Well, if you are your new nature and it never sins then why does it not just take over and conquer the old man?

Answer
Because the new man is weak and the flesh takes over.

Question
Well why doesn't the new nature build itself up and take over since it's perfect?

Answer
No answer so far."


Brother,

Even though all those that are born of the spirit have a new nature, the Word of God says that we must have our mind renewed. We must present our bodies unto God, which is the consecration of a Christian.

The believer is in the process of being sanctified. We believe unto the "saving of the soul."

John Wesley and his followers taught the doctrine of "instantaneous sancitification". This teaching known as the "second work of grace" states that the believer is sanctified in an instant of time. From God's side the believer is sanctified at salvation, but from our side, the Holy Spirit is working within us to conform us to the imgage and likeness of Christ, which is a process.

Our new nature is not just going to take over, because we are involved in the process. God has not taken our free will away, and we can still choose to yield our members to God or to unrighteousness. We can choose whether or not to set our minds on the things that are above, that which is pure and holy or think on the things which gratify the flesh. It is the Spirit of God and the Word of God that does the work of sanctification in us, but God needs our co-operation.

Mike


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Mike

 2009/8/21 15:58Profile
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Elected,

the flesh wars against the spirit.

The old man wars with the new man.

The old man is still there, but needs to be continually put to death.

We have a war in our members.

 2009/8/21 16:16Profile





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