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murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Blayne --- Your testimony reminds so much of Andrew Murray’s book the Two covenants and the Second Blessing. It’s amazing the different ways that the Holy Spirit will lead the individual into the truth.

Quote: It took me a couple of years of wrestling with difficult questions before I realized that my Christian life was no further advanced than the faithful of the Old Covenant. I had mistakenly subjected myself under the yoke of Sinai instead of Jesus.

Can you tell me more of your testimony, what happened next…

http://www.jesus.org.uk/vault/library/murray_two_covenants.pdf


_________________
Colin Murray

 2012/6/26 9:09Profile
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re:

Hi! murrcolr

I've DownLoaded the "Two Covenants" file and I plan to read it from start-to-finish later this day. Thanks for the Link.

At the time, I had read all of Murray's books and every single one of Watchman Nee's too and dozens of other 'famous' Christian authors and none of these had sufficient teaching which could "lift me out of the miry clay", (Psalm 40:2).

You see, Murrcolr, I was not merely blind, but deaf and robbed by thieves; also bound and in prison; I was not only dead, but was buried too. Whoever says, "Come forth!", to such a man must say it with authority; and only Lazarus himself knows what such a journey entails.

Murrcolr, I want to be perfectly honest with you and others in here; but I don't wish to offend nor agitate any of you either.
Ummm, take for instance this Thread by Member 'RainyDayGirl', [ https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=45463&forum=35&0 ].
When I read that RainyDayGirl's question, I wanted to reply saying: "God has nothing to do with convicting people!". But then I said to myself, "Blayne, you don't want to open up yet another can of worms, do you?".

So many sincere people have their ideas about God all neatly packaged and are loathe to re-examine. It's like visiting a Doctor's office and being content with his Medicine Diploma which is dated for the year 1823.
God has spoken to His people since 1823; He is speaking to His people in this very day and hour! His Word is alive and being preached. New and exciting things have and are being revealed and taught.

Sadly, there are some who insist to remain content with the 1823 packaging of their Gospel. Therefore, the Great Physician can only heal and restore them to the extent of their 1823 knowledge of the Scriptures.

You asked if I could tell you more ... what happened next. To be honest, Murrcolr, it's much too long a story to tell here. At least twenty years ago my Christian friends had suggested that I perhaps write a book. It wasn't until this year that I began to follow their advice and I'm now composing "The Land of Stolen Spirits". It will tell the story of a horrific childhood (where my parents punished me by placing my hands in a coal furnace) and continue through several years of imprisonment in some of the most dangerous penitentiaries and end with my being introduced to the Gospel of the Kingdom. (It will be distributed entirely free and is undergoing proof-reading now; but I can give you a peek at the first Chapter if you wish).

Yes, you are so right in saying "It's amazing the different ways that the Holy Spirit will lead the individual into the truth". That's the wonderous God whom we have! He puts us on His lap and speaks to us in a language that is especially measured for our individual understanding.


========================

Re:
by murrcolr on 2012/6/26 6:09:05

Blayne --- Your testimony reminds so much of Andrew Murray’s book the Two covenants and the Second Blessing. It’s amazing the different ways that the Holy Spirit will lead the individual into the truth.

Quote: It took me a couple of years of wrestling with difficult questions before I realized that my Christian life was no further advanced than the faithful of the Old Covenant. I had mistakenly subjected myself under the yoke of Sinai instead of Jesus.

Can you tell me more of your testimony, what happened next…

http://www.jesus.org.uk/vault/library/murray_two_covenants.pdf
========================

 2012/6/26 11:44Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re: Christians will sin throughout our life on Earth.

"Why would Jesus say, "go and sin no more" unless it was possible? Why would God say "thou shalt not" at threat of eternal hell, unless we were capable?"

That is a very easy question to reply to.

Jesus was not talking to you or any other Christians.

Jesus words were directed to His fellow Jews, and to the Jews only. Jesus referred to gentiles as dogs unworthy of eating the food of God's people, the Jews.

When Jesus spoke those words, there was no New Testament, nor the Gosepl revealed. At that time Jesus was a Rabbi (actually the Chief Rabbi since He was the Son of God, but His felloe Jews did not know who Jesus actually IS, the only begotten SON of the FATHER), living under the Mosaic Law, which were in full effect until Jesus death on the cross.

If Jesus were to teach His fellows Jews to violate the Mosaic covenant by embracing the New Laws of the New Covenant, then Jesus would be violating The Mosaic Covenant, which would be a sin and this would have eliminated Jesus as being the perfect Paschal Lamb of God who was unblemished because He kept all the Laws of the Mosaic Covenant from Birth through His death bey crucifixion.

Upon His death, God annihilated the Mosaic Covenant. And God repleaced it with the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

The difference between the two Covenants is:

The Mosaic Covenant ( a Bi-Lateral Contract) required His People to collectively keep 613 laws to receive the Blessings promised in that Contract.

The New Covenant of Jesus Christ (a unilateral Contract), consisting of three laws whereby God keeps us, a true gift from God to all who received and accepted Jesus as Lord and redeemer via His atoning blood shed on the cross to all whom receive it as a covering of all their sins for all time.

No Christian, except Jesus, will ever be sinless during their lifetime on Earth. How do we know this:

1 John 5-10

5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8. IF WE SAY THAT WE HAVE NO SIN, WE ARE DECEIVING OURSELVES AND THE TRUTH, WE ARE DECEIVING OURSELVES.

9 IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, HE IS FAITHFUL AND RIGHTEOUS TO FORGIVE US OUR SINS AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

10. IF WE SAY WE HAVE NOT SINNED, WE MAKE HIM A LIAR AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US.


_________________
Arthur Biele

 2012/6/26 12:36Profile









 Re: Go and sin no more

I got lost waaaaay back at the beginning of this thread. Jesus tells the woman caught in adultery. Go and sin no more. Or leave your life of sin. He did not condemn her. Simply she was to turn away from sin and live for Christ. By implication we are to do the sane. How.

If I may apply some wisdom from the word. Psalm 119:9 ask how can a young man keep his way pure. By keeping or living according to his word. Psalm.119:11 says your word I have hidden or treasured in my heart that I might not sin against you. So get the word into your heart and you decrease the desire to sin.

Keith Daniels has said in a message regarding the Bible. The word will keep yoou away from sin, or sin will keep you away from the word. So read your Bible.

Ain't theological enough. Sorry folks. I was corrupted by a group of hard core men of God called the Navigators. These old Navs were solid men of God who loved Christ and solid in the word. They were big into discipleship and the word. Particularly memorizing it.

Thus they would say put away the commentaries and stay in the word. But that might be too basic. Sorry folks at 61 I like it simple.

Breaux Bear

 2012/6/26 14:25
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re:

Hi! ArtB

Wow! You took the words right out of my mouth, (as the the saying goes).

You wrote:
"The difference between the two Covenants is:
The Mosaic Covenant ( a Bi-Lateral Contract) required His People to collectively keep 613 laws to receive the Blessings promised in that Contract.
The New Covenant of Jesus Christ (a unilateral Contract), consisting of three laws whereby God keeps us, a true gift from God to all who received and accepted Jesus as Lord and redeemer via His atoning blood shed on the cross to all whom receive it as a covering of all their sins for all time."

Ummm, let's further look into your comment:
Abraham and the rest of the Old Testament faithful are 'saved' ... would you agree?
Their sacrifices of animals in the Old Covenant foreshadowed the sacrifice of the Lamb of God in the New Covenant, .... would you agree?
I believe you would.

The question still remains:
What promises do we New Covenant Christians have that Isaiah or John the Baptist did not have?
The faithful of the Old Testament and New Testament both have a share in forgiveness of sins and righteousness as a result of turning away from sin and iniquity.

So, there obviously must be something that we are to possess as New Testament faithful which the the Old Testament faithful could not.

Some might say that the Old Testament faithful followed instructions given by God while the New Testament faithful follow after the Gospel of Jesus.
But isn't the result essentially the same? Are not both groups 'saved'?

Do you see what I'm trying to say here?
Jesus did not come to replicate the Old Covenant; albeit, under a new set of instructions and rules. The work and ministry of Jesus revealed the ENTIRE thoughts of God; the ultimate intention and purposes of God towards man.

Chapters 5 & 10 of Romans mention the subject of 'being saved' or 'salvation'. Paul wasn't speaking about the traditional idea of 'being saved for eternity' but rather that our life is saved for the great plan of God.
There is more to life under God's sun than just the necessary knowledge of being 'saved'. Life in the New Covenant offers the greatest possibility that, once having been justified in the blood of the Lamb, we can exist as sons of God Almighty. What a glorious inheritance the heavenly Father has given to His children!

So? What were these intentions and purposes of God that the Old Covenant faithful longed to see but did not?

It may sound humble and meek when a child of God says: "I am such a great sinner". In reality, however, he undermines Christ's work of salvation. When we have sinned we have to confess our sins to God, and then we have to believe that we are perfectly clean. Then we are also able to "draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience", (Heb 10:22). Now, at this very moment, we are holy and righteous and pure because of the word which God has spoken to us, (John 15:3).

The very same power by which Jesus rose from the dead is also at work in the children of God, (Rom 5:11). For that reason all things are possible not only with God but also with all who believe (Mark 9:23). Those who insist to testify that they remain as sinners until death are aligned with "Having a form of godliness, but denying its power".

Truly, the Spirit of God is doing a great work in us. He penetrates into the deepest corners of our heart. God is increasingly and continually renewing our life. It is this process of change which often creates our intense joy. Actually, what is the greatest miracle on earth? Isn't it the miracle of a sinful person changing into a perfectly blameless cooperator with God, a fully spiritual human being?

"Filled with the knowledge of his will", (Col 1:9), what exactly does this verse mean? The next few verses supply the answer: it is that we obtain wisdom, understanding and spiritual insight; the purpose of all this being to lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to Him, and bearing fruit in every good work.

Knowledge of the will of God, combined with wisdom and spiritual understanding aim at that one great purpose: that the man of God should be perfect.

Many Christians will stammer and protest when they hear this. "Impossible!, they will exclaim; "We are sinful people and we'll remain sinful until we die, imperfect people, always ready to do evil".

If this were really true, Paul the apostle would be an unspiritual man, a dreamer. For what did he write to the church of the Colossians? Let me list it once again. First: you are a good congregation; faith, hope and love are found among you, and that is fine! Second, now that I know this I'll pray for you that you will be full of the right knowledge of the will of God. And finally, the purpose of this fulness is that you should lead a life worthy of the Lord and be fully pleasing to Him.

So, we have yet another question: was it really possible for these people to be fully pleasing to God? If we say No to this, we have made Paul a man who prayed for an impossible thing, and that seems like an improbable matter to me because Paul was guided by the Spirit of God.

But if we answer Yes to this question, there's another problem. If the Colossians would be fully pleasing to God, would there still be sin left in them?
If we answer Yes to this question it would be tantamount to stating that certain sins are pleasing to God, and that of course is absurd.
So, it clearly means that those faithful who fully please God do not sin any longer. In other words: they are perfect, without sin!
When that is the case, Paul's prayer would have come true: they would be bearing fruit in every good work. No more evil works but only good works.
But in those days the church of Colossae had not reached that level yet. And that's why the apostle prayed for them, that the things which were not yet would come into being. This was a prayer inspired by the Holy Spirit.

To be fully pleasing to God: what an exalted thought! It is almost too great to grasp that this is possible for mere man. Personally I have to admit that I am unable to understand it, but at the same time I press on for it, for the simple reason that it is the will of God for us.

I'm very much aware this idea is rejected by many Christians. Many keep saying that man cannot become perfect. In due time, in heaven, all unrighteousness will be removed in one fell swoop, they say, but here it will always be a matter of muddling through.
I constantly find myself asking: "Don't these people read the bible?"
My faith is that in the power of the Holy Spirit who, according to the promise of God, is able to do in us far more abundantly than we ask or think.

I'd rather be in the company of those who let themselves be guided by Paul's exhortations. After these many centuries we again want to be taught by his letters and be aware of the fact that God has not changed, nor has the will of God. We want to be filled with the will of God; we want to put our mind on it and realise it in our lives. And even though we may not be perfect yet, we want to increase in the right knowledge of the will of God. Bearing fruit in every good work, being fully pleasing to Him, that is what God wills!

I think the root of the problem is that many people misunderstand the words repentance and regeneration; the words are synonymous to them. The words have been given a certain emotional value, but seldom is the emotional value tested if it is scriptural or not. This can cause a tremendous amount of false ideas about our Christian journey.

Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit. God dwells in us! He takes my weakness and I receive His strength. He takes my poverty and I receive His riches. We are fellow workers with God! We are sinners no longer, but saints! We are re-created to be conformed to the image of the Son, supermen in the true sense of the word!
As the Philistines cut Samson's hair and gouged out his eyes, robbing him of his strength and glory, so the man of God in Christ has been treated by generations of religious teachers and leaders. Yet, as Samson recovered once again at the end of his life, so we too have the promise that "by God's power we are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time", (1Peter 1:5).

Is our knowledge imperfect? Are our actions imperfect? Yes, at present, they are, but is it going to become less and less the case. We will become less imperfect! When we think about it in this way, the idea, (and the hope it brings), can be grasped. Less imperfect! That IS something that can be realized.

The rough edges of the stone are polished gradually. Our great Teacher is patient, He does not stand behind us with a whip or cane. Those who learn are allowed to make mistakes - but not always the same ones. When our sole desire is to learn to become what God wants us to be, then the imperfections in our personal lives will continually grow less. Always bearing in mind that 'less imperfect' is the same thing as 'more perfect'. Isn't this true?




====================================================
Re: Christians will sin throughout our life on Earth.
by ArtB on 2012/6/26 9:36:30
====================================================

 2012/6/26 15:04Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

quote from Blayne, "It may sound humble and meek when a child of God says: "I am such a great sinner". In reality, however, he undermines Christ's work of salvation."

With all due respect that contradicts Paul's own estimation of himself in 1Timothy 1:15, "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief."

In calling himself the chief of sinners, was Paul undermining Christ's work of salvation?




_________________
Oracio

 2012/6/26 15:12Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: With all due respect that contradicts Paul's own estimation of himself in 1Timothy 1:15, "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief."

With the greatest of respect to you we must keep reading onto the next verse to really see what Paul is saying.

1 Timothy 1: 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

The Chief of sinners obtained mercy so that Christ in “Paul’s life first” might show forth his lonsuffering and that “Paul’s life” would be a pattern or example to them who would believe on Christ.

In a nutshell Paul is saying “I was the chief of sinner but now I am your example of a Christian”

Now the statement above is far different from "I am such a great sinner"


_________________
Colin Murray

 2012/6/26 16:01Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1758


 Re:

Quote:

That is a very easy question to reply to.

Jesus was not talking to you or any other Christians.

Jesus words were directed to His fellow Jews, and to the Jews only. Jesus referred to gentiles as dogs unworthy of eating the food of God's people, the Jews.



None of the Preachers listed here in this site believe that certain teachings of Jesus is not applicable to us. I once Asked Greg about such strange teachings that few posters are introducing into his site and why he does not delete such senseless posts. He said that not everyone is spiritually mature, and we have to wait till people who post such faulty doctrines mature. But according to me the problem is not maturity of people like this, they are plainly unbelievers. Anyone who does not believe in the words of Jesus is an unbeliever. Period.

Please do not act as a tool of Satan to spread such unbelief.


_________________
Sreeram

 2012/6/26 16:46Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

Blayne: I read your post, but I can not reply now. There are times in the day that my mind shuts with complexity, and that is now.

murrcolr: Your response to 'oracio' is good.

Sree: If Sermonindex should ask me not to post here, I certainly would honor their request, and my blessings would remain with them.



Let me ask you a few questions, Sree:

Is the New Covenant of Jesus Christ (i.e. new Contract with God) the same as The Mosaic Covenant (again Covenant = Contract)?

Is Jesus a Priest of the Levitical priesthood?

Or is Jesus a Priest according to the Superior Priesthood of Melchizedek?

And one more question.

Surely the New Covenant of Jesus Christ must be different than the Mosaic Covenant in regard to how we obtain salvation, if not, then the New Covenant must be a duplicate of the Mosaic Covenant. I doubt any Christian believes that. The Jews certainly don't. The Mosaic Covenant was based on obedience to a long list of commandments, with great blessings for keeping them, and horrid curses for not keeping them The New Covenant is based upon the sacrifice of the Perfect Paschal Lamb whose blood shed on the cross washes away all sins for all time to all who accept that blood of Jesus for forgiveness of all our sins.

The Mosaic Covenant was in effect until the moment of Jesus Death.Upon Jesus death, the Mosaic Covenant was annihilated upon Jesus death on the cross.



Zechariah 11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)


THE DOOMED FLOCKED

11:1 Open your doors, O Lebanon, That a fire may feed on your cedars.

2 Wail, O cypress, for the cedar has fallen, Because the glorious trees have been destroyed; Wail, O oaks of Bashan, For the impenetrable forest has come down.

3 There is a sound of the shepherds’ wail, For their glory is ruined; There is a sound of the young lions’ roar, For the pride of the Jordan is ruined.

FROM THE TIME OF JESUS DEATH TILL THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE (30 AD - 70 AD), THE DOORS OF HEROD'S TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM KEPT SWINGING OPEN. THE HIGH PRIEST AND JEWS UNDERSTOOD saw this as a sign THAT THE PROPHECY ZEC 11:1-3 WAS NEAR.

ZEC: 4 Thus says the Lord my God, “Pasture the flock doomed to slaughter.

5 Those who buy them slay them and go unpunished, and each of those who sell them says, ‘Blessed be the Lord, for I have become rich!’ And their own shepherds have no pity on them.

6 For I will no longer have pity on the inhabitants of the land,” declares the Lord; “but behold, I will cause the men to fall, each into another’s power and into the power of his king; and they will strike the land, and I will not deliver them from their [ENEMY'S] power.”

7 So I pastured the flock doomed to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock. And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock.

8 Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me.

9 Then I said, “I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another’s flesh.”

10 I took my staff 'Favor' and cut it in pieces, TO BREAK MY COVENANT WHICH I HAD MADE WITH ALL THE PEOPLES.

11 So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the Lord.

12 I said to them, “If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!” So they weighed out THIRTY SHEKELS OF SILVER as my wages.

13 Then THE LORD SAID to me, “Throw it to the potter, THAT MAGNIFICIENT PRICE AT WHICH I WAS VALUED BY THEM.” So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the Lord.

It ought to be clear that the only bilateral Covenant that God made with the peoples, can only be the peoples of the Exodus, the Mosaic Law.

The New Covenant is a unilateral Covenant. Whomever accepts the atoning blood of the perfect Paschal Lamb, Jesus our Messiah.

So when Jesus was in Judea preaching only to His fellow Jews, teaching them how best to keep the Mosaic Law. Had Jesus preached the New Covenant prior to to His Crucifixion, Jesus would have been in violation of the Mosaic Covenant, and that would have nullified Jesus being the unblemished Lamb of God who takes away all our sins with His blood covering.

Jesus was Israel's true High Priest, and the words He spoke was to His fellow Jews, teaching them on the best ways to keep the Mosaic Laws. The Sermon on the Mount was a brilliant Sermon from Jesus to His people Jews on the best approach to keep the Mosaic Laws. Jesus did not preach salvation to the gentiles, His ministry was to His fellow Jews. Jesus referred to the the gentiles as dogs unworthy of the bread that God gives to His people, the Jews.

Jesus never sought to preach the gospel to the gentiles, until after His ressurrection, upon the establishment of the New Covenant.

Had Jesus teached the New Covenant, He would have have violated the Mosaic covenant. Even the Jews accused Him of this and Jesus told them outright that was not true. But He did heal gentiles who came to Him by faith. For that is God's nature, to help those who come to Him out and seeking God's mercy.

The Jewish leadership corporately as a nation rejected Jesus, and handed Jesus to the Romans who Crucified Him. Upon His death, God annihilated the bilateral Contract with His people, the Mosaic Covenant. Upon His ressurrection the New Covenant of Jesus New Covenant was established, and Jesus began to plainly explain the New Covenant to His disciples.

















_________________
Arthur Biele

 2012/6/26 20:14Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2754
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Sree, you are right to call this out, ArtB has introduced these strange teachings for some time now.

I believe that we can be certain that Jesus taught many things that we need to know and obey. This hyper-dispensationalist theology that is being introduced here by ArtB would rob the Church of the greatest statements of true Christian living that came from the lips of Jesus Christ our Lord.

Christ's teachings have clear application to Christians today and most of His message is repeated in the substance elsewhere throughout the New Testament. There is nothing to indicate that this message is to be limited in its application only to the people of Israel and to argue that Jesus would be breaking the Old Covenant by teaching the New Covenant, simply doesn't follow.

Christ's teachings are simply not a restatement, expansion, or supplement of the law but are the highest expression of the quality of Christian living which Christ alone can produce. The gospel is the message of the person and work of Jesus Christ. Its incredible "good news" is that He can do for us what we cannot do for ourselves; He can change a sinner into a saint.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2012/6/26 20:55Profile





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