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Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re: Go and sin no more

Hi! Murrcolr

Your comment here is exceedingly unusual; by that I mean: it's not very often that a Christian has the boldness of spirit to ask about such a thing.
The quick answer to your question is YES.
Not only does the Scripture clearly state it as possible; it absolutely commends it as our goal.

I think the largest difficulty is that the word "sinlessness" or "perfection" is poorly translated/understood. These words speak about maturity ... spiritual maturity ... being restored in soul, spirit and body to the original intent and purpose of God.

The TLJ Site is primarily aimed at this exact question you posed here. Unfortunately, it is undergoing major Upgrades today and is OffLine. But tomorrow, (June 25), it will return OnLine and you can read many articles concerning "spiritual maturity". http://www.tolovejesus.com

In the meantime, here are some additional thoughts regarding your question:

In Matthew 19:16 the wealthy young man asks a peculiar question. He wanted to know what good he had to do to gain eternal life. For the Old Testament students of the Bible this was not a common subject of discussion by any means, for the expression is only used in Daniel 12:2 in connection with the resurrection of the dead. The word, 'life', however, is used frequently in the Old Testament.

No doubt, this young man had listened to Jesus many times and he had noticed that the Lord often mentioned 'eternal life'. Jesus did not move this to the period after the resurrection of the dead, but He promised to give it now. He who believes in the Son has eternal life. It does not say that he will receive it afterwards. Eternal life is permanent life and therefore a life of quality. The Mosaic law said: 'This is your life' and when answering the young man the Lord drew his attention to the second part of the law, to the requirements of the old covenant towards fellow men. 'He who does these things shall gain life by what he does'. This 'life' notwithstanding, man would die and at his death enter into Sheol.

The righteous of the old dispensation believed that what God had said to man was good for Him. They did not listen to the devil, the deceiver and tempter, but walked with God. In their life they were blessed and their names were written in the book of life. This young man also belonged to this category of righteous people. He witnessed that he had kept all the precepts of the law. For that reason he questioned what might still be lacking in his life. Jesus rejoiced because of him, looked at him and loved him, for God who loves truth also loves those who live uprightly. The Lord saw his uprightness of heart and pure life. He longed to include the young man in the circle of his disciples: This was not an injured or damaged person who needed deliverance first of all, but a sound and whole man. This young man had withstood the temptation of wealth and had not yielded to sin. In this way he had reached the limits of the Old Covenant. Persevering in this life he would die a righteous man and in Sheol receive a place in Abraham's bosom.

The Lord's answer, however, puts a much higher ideal before this righteous young man. He invites him to press on for this ideal and at the same time indicates the condition to which it is subject. For the faithful of the New Covenant righteousness is not the final goal, but perfection, that is, the gaining of maturity and the development as a child of God in the spiritual world. Now the opportunity is given to grow up as a spiritual man to gain full maturity.

Every Christian has this same question of Jesus placed before them: "Would you be perfect?". The average church-goer would answer that he expects to be a sinner until he dies, always ready to fall in some kind of sin. The evangelical Christian would refuse to answer this question by saying that he would rather be 'broken' and humble, his daily prayer is to be a 'doormat' in the house of the Lord. In their opinion, perfection will only come after death. Even asking this question is irritating to many.

They desire to be known as respectable Christian sinners! For the modern Christian the idea of perfection is absurd and unacceptable. He who asks the question will immediately be accused of perfectionism' and 'sinlessness'.

Jesus meant this: "Would you wish to make more progress than is possible in the Old Covenant? Would you pursue still another goal and obtain other opportunities? Then I will show you the way which leads upwards, into the heavenly places".

There is a Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven that offers unprecedented perspectives. This had never been preached before but Jesus revealed it. To be perfect, (not to become perfect after death), the young man has to surrender his earthly securities. He will have to be strong and steadfast in faith, not in wealth. He will have to enter into the invisible Kingdom of God to lay up treasure there where moth or rust do not damage it, which cannot be stolen from him. There he will have to live by faith only. For that reason the Lord advises him: "Go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and then you will have riches in heaven. And come, follow Me".

To follow Jesus means: to accept His words and adhere to them, to live in accordance with His ways of thinking, to think as He thought, to speak as He spoke and to act as He did. It means: to relinquish everything to gain the heavenly inheritance, that is the forgiveness of guilt; being a child of God; the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and his abilities; sharing in the divine nature; broadcasting the love of God which aims at deliverance, healing and restoration; the victory over the powers of darkness. Even Death and Hades will then be conquered enemies, no more to be seen or experienced. All these treasures, however, are invisible to the natural eye. They can only be appropriated by faith and form "the inheritance that nothing can destroy or spoil or wither" which is "kept for us in heaven".

Jesus guarantees the young man these heavenly riches if he is able to relinquish his earthly certainties. The young man had many possessions which demanded his care and worry. He had more than money only. He had his prestige, his status, the ceremonies of the Old Covenant, his sincerity, his long prayers, the solemn garments, the whole content of an outward religious life with its abstinence, observance of the Sabbath, precepts and solemnities. "Give it to the poor", the Lord advised him. 'Give your money to those who need it to lead a life of minimum necessities and give all the outward show to the Pharisees and Scribes for whom these things are indispensable to maintain themselves in the religious world. Follow Me to hear the truth in a care-free way and to share in the treasure of the Kingdom of God'.

The rich young man was unable to switch over from earth to heaven, from the visible to the unseen. He did not follow Jesus but went away with a heavy heart. Everyone of us too have to make the choice: either a Christian life on the basis of the Old Testament, or a Christian life that makes perfection its aim through a renewal of the mind and through faith.


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Go and sin no more
by murrcolr on 2009/8/20 13:50:15

John 8:11
"She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

John 5:14
"Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

I guess the strongest argument is that impossible not to sin. But why would Jesus say, "Sin no more" in John 5:14 and 8:11. Is Jesus being facetious because He knew it was impossible to do? Does he mean, don't do a particular sin any more?

But there is no getting away from the fact, God expects us to stop sinning. God expects prefeection in our lives.

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
Matthew 5:48

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you."
Philippians 3:15

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."
2Corinthians 7:1

Sinlessness and perfection I rememebr talking to a Pastor about these things and he said it's impossible that we will never attain this in this life.

My belief is that it is possible to live a life where we "sin no more" although I cannot say it's a fact in my life, what do you believe and why?

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 2012/6/24 17:49Profile









 Re: Go and sin no more

It is not the notion of saying sin should not be the norm and that we should strive against sin that I find problematic. Even the suggestion that a Christian might be able to attain some kind of sinless state seems laudable.

However, It is the toxic doctrine that a christian MUST lead a sinless life or be damned that I find detestable. If such a doctrine is true then we have an unmerciful and un-saving saviour who kicks us when we are down. Certainly if this is true then I (and probably most of you) are headed for hell.

 2012/6/24 18:39
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re:

Hi! Butters

Yes, your observation is correct.
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that there are many abusive ideas which become attached to the foundations of our Christian faith and/or doctrines.
Nonetheless, the question of Jesus (Matthew 19:16) remains for each of us to properly answer: Do you want to be perfect?".

This question is the third of three questions which must be answered by every Christian.
The second question is found in John 5:6, "Do you want to get well?".
The first question is found in Matthew 16:13, "Who do you say I am?"

I'm sure you'll agree that the two preceding questions which we have already answered on our Christian journey have also been severely abused and misrepresented. Yet, we have somehow managed to find our way and now find ourselves standing at the third question: "Do you want to be perfect?".


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Re: Go and sin no more
by Butters on 2012/6/24 15:39:19
It is the toxic doctrine that a christian MUST lead a sinless life or be damned that I find detestable. If such a doctrine is true then we have an unmerciful and un-saving saviour who kicks us when we are down. Certainly if this is true then I (and probably most of you) are headed for hell.
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 2012/6/24 18:54Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1718


 Re: Go and sin no more

Jesus did not mean sinless perfection. He meant that the Sin that you know do not do it anymore. This is a very tough thing to understand, I am very sure most believers do not understand this. We can only abstrain from things that we know as sin but there might be many areas of our life in which we do not know about sin.

It is like a baby who learns things, she might not know that touching fire will burn her hand but once she experiences it she will never do it again. But that does not mean she learnt about putting her fingure into electic outlet. She is yet to learn about that danger. So based on the dangers she knew she will not commit them.

This is what John meant in his first letter when he said that 'if we say that we do not have sin then we deceive ourself', he also went futher saying 'I write this letter so that you may not sin'. Are these 2 statements contradictory? No they are not, in the first statement he meant Sins that are unknown to us. So he means that there might be so many sins in me that I am totally unkown of, hence I need to believe in Jesus for my Righteousness. But in the second statement he speaks about Sin that are known to us. He wants us not to commit them anymore.


_________________
Sreeram

 2012/6/24 22:47Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1718


 Re:

Quote:

It is not the notion of saying sin should not be the norm and that we should strive against sin that I find problematic. Even the suggestion that a Christian might be able to attain some kind of sinless state seems laudable.

However, It is the toxic doctrine that a christian MUST lead a sinless life or be damned that I find detestable. If such a doctrine is true then we have an unmerciful and un-saving saviour who kicks us when we are down. Certainly if this is true then I (and probably most of you) are headed for hell.



You are totally wrong, you mix human argument and logic in understanding God's work. A simple question about Jesus will prove your logic wrong. Was Jesus sinless? Was he not in the likeness of our flesh? How was he able to live a sinless life? Did he have anything extra that we do not have?

The answer is Jesus was able to live a sinless life though the same Holy Spirit that is also gifted to every believer who truely seeks him. If we have the same Holy Spirit that Jesus had then why do you believe that we cannot live like Jesus? If you still believe it is impossible then it is unbelief, please repent from it. Do not be confused with Human doctrine any more.
1 John 3:3 - says -
We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

So if you do not have this hope that you will be like Jesus one day then you are an unbeliever, Period. If you really have this hope then you will purify yourself and believe that no matter how wretched your status today is, one day you will be like Jesus by the power of God.

Forgive me If I have hurt you, Unbelief is the greatest tool of Satan, we should be very careful not to spread it and help him.


_________________
Sreeram

 2012/6/24 23:00Profile









 Re: .Keeping it simple

1 John 2:1

My dear chikdren, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense---Jesus Christ, the righteous one.

Why spoil it with my comments. Let the Holy Spirit write this on hearts and minds.

Bearmaster standing down.

 2012/6/25 0:19









 To murrcolr

Let me put it this way.

The Good News is what God in Christ has already accomplished for us and in us through the Cross. Christ crucified you when He died and you were buried with Him. Your old self died and you received Christ's very Life. You were made one with Him. He made you a NEW CREATION. As a result of this union with God, you are now, fully justified, made righteous, holy and perfect as Christ Himself is. You are one with Holy Spirit or the Spirit of Christ. You are no longer a sinner; you now have a new pure heart and God's very Divine Nature.

This is NOT a positional truth but a REAL LIVING reality that you can experience daily.

I think you are in a similar situation as Hudson Taylor was before he saw the light.

Look what he wrote.

"I felt I was a child of God; His Spirit in my heart would cry, in spite of all, "Abba, Father", but to rise to my privileges as a child, I was utterly powerless. I thought that holiness was to be gradually attained by a diligent use of the means of grace. I felt that there was nothing I so much desired in this world, nothing I so much needed. But the more I pursued and strove after holiness, the more it eluded my grasp, till hope itself almost died out, and I began to think that perhaps to make heaven the sweeter, God would not give it to us in this life.

I do not think I was striving to attain it in my own strength. I knew I was powerless. I told the Lord so, and asked Him to give me help and strength and sometimes I almost believed He would keep and uphold me. But on looking back in the evening, there was sin and failure to confess and mourn before God.

I would not give you the impression that this was the daily experience of all those long, weary months, but it tended to be a too frequent state of soul and I almost ended up in despair. And yet, never did Christ seem more precious a Savior who could and would save such a sinner! And sometimes there were seasons not only of peace but of joy in the Lord. But they were fleeting and at best there was a sad lack of power. Oh, how good the Lord has been in bringing this conflict to an end!

All the time I felt assured that there was in Christ all I needed, but the practical question was how to get it out. He was rich, but I was poor; He was strong, but I was weak. I knew full well that there was in the vine, in the root, the stem, abundant fatness; but how to get it into my puny little branch was the question.

As gradually the light dawned on me, I saw that faith was the only prerequisite to laying hold of His fullness and making it my own. But I had not this faith . . . I strove for it, but it would not come; I tried to exercise it, but in vain. Seeing more and more the wondrous supply of grace laid up in Jesus, the fullness of our precious Savior - my helplessness and guilt seemed to increase. Sins committed appeared but as trifles compared with the sin of unbelief which was their cause, which could not or would not take God at His word, but rather made Him a liar! Unbelief was, I felt, the damning sin of the world - yet I indulged in it. I prayed for faith but it did not come. What was I to do?"

Go here to read the whole article
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=42392&forum=34&6

Please read it slowly and more than once. Pray and expect that God's opens your eyes to see what Hudson Taylor saw.

 2012/6/25 11:14
PRMatt
Member



Joined: 2012/6/25
Posts: 2


 Re: Go and sin no more

Here is a good response to John chapter 8 when Jesus says, "Go and sin no more."

http://www.pastormattrichard.com/2012/04/go-and-sin-no-more-taking-closer-look.html

 2012/6/25 11:26Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Sree

Amen, Sree RE Sree wrote /A simple question about Jesus will prove your logic wrong. Was Jesus sinless? Was he not in the likeness of our flesh? How was he able to live a sinless life? Did he have anything extra that we do not have?/

Modern Christianity does not believe that Jesus was made in the likeness of our flesh rather that he had a special flesh,Thus what he accomplished is impossable for The Christian to attain. Augustines doctrine of original sin denies That Christ came in the same flesh as us.



 2012/6/25 11:58Profile
TrueWitness
Member



Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 522


 Re:

proudpapa wrote:

Modern Christianity does not believe that Jesus was made in the likeness of our flesh rather that he had a special flesh,Thus what he accomplished is impossable for The Christian to attain. Augustines doctrine of original sin denies That Christ came in the same flesh as us.

My response:

Actually original sin as taught by Christian orthodoxy holds that it was Christ's nature that was sinless. His physical flesh was the same as any other man's. Christ did not inherit a sinful nature because he was virgin born and did not inherit Adam's sin.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man (ADAM) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men (except Jesus who was conceived of the Holy Spirit and virgin born), for that all have sinned (except of course Jesus).
Exposition placed in parentheses

The sinless life that Jesus lived is impossible for the unregenerate sinner (by nature) to attain but is possible for the Christian to attain because of the cross and resurrection. The cross not only provides forgiveness for our sins by the substitution of Christ's perfect life for our sinful life but also we died WITH HIM. That sinful nature that the Christian inherited at physical birth from Adam was crucified with Christ and we are now DEAD to sin. Sin here speaks not of acts of sin but of the power of sin which is sometimes referred to as sinful nature today in order to not confuse it with sin meaning sinful acts. And every Christian receives the Holy Spirit in their spirit to live in the power of Christ-likeness. So because of the cross and resurrection and pentecost it is possible for every born again Christian to live a life free from the dominion of sin.

 2012/6/25 13:38Profile





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