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AbideinHim
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Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3537
Louisiana

 Re:

Quote by A.J. Gordon from "Born Crucified"

"Divine truth as revealed in scripture seems often to lie between two extremes…. Almost all of the gravest errors have arisen from adopting some extreme statement of Scripture to the rejection of the other extreme….. If we regard the doctrine of sinless perfection as a heresy, we regard contentment with sinful imperfection as a greater heresy."


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Mike

 2009/8/22 11:44Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

A.J. Gordon also said, “

‘If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves,’ the unconscious justification for a low standard of Christian living. It were almost better for one to overstate the possibilities of sanctification in his eager grasp after holiness, than to understate them in his complacent satisfaction with a traditional unholiness. Certainly it is not an edifying spectacle to see a Christian worldling throwing stones at a Christian perfectionist.”


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Colin Murray

 2009/8/22 13:56Profile
Anastasis
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Joined: 2009/7/1
Posts: 75


 Re: Go and sin no more

I read all of 1 John this morning.

As one preliminary thought, John Wesley is known for addressing this issue. To sum it up briefly, Christian perfectionism vs. sinless perfection. John Wesley believed in perfectionism as, the best I know how to describe it, as a journey to perfection, and the complete surrender of oneself in every aspect to God, giving no inch to the devil; he would never accept the idea of sinless perfection though, as "...sinless perfection is a phrase I never use, lest I should seem to contradict myself." Apparently the ideas do not necessarily relate.

What I'll do here is I'll lay down some of my thoughts from reading 1 John. Murrcolr, I'm most interested in your thoughts.

On 1:8 through 2:1, I considered the idea that it was someone who had only previously sinned, but does not now sin. John uses "we" quite frequently, so I would guess he would include himself in this passage, as if to say, for example, "Even if I claim to have no sin, then I prove that the truth is not in me," unless the use of "we" is just his peculiar writing style, and he does mean sinless perfection.

I move on to 2:1, an he says he does write these things so that we don't sin. Makes sense. Then he says, "But if anyone does sin," and in context I assume that he means his audience, whom I assume were Christians and believers, and in case any of these believers do sin (still sounds like it should be the exception), they have the advocate to the Father, Jesus Christ. Given context so far, from my interpretation, "Get rid of all sin. Have none of it. I write these so that you don't. Yet unless someone does, which I hope would be the exception, you have your advocate of forgiveness, Jesus Christ."

Then I get to Chapter 3:6 - Everyone who remains in Him does not sin; everyone who sins has not seen Him or known Him. Do we mean this as a habit, or do we say that even a single sin proves that you do not know God? Once again, how do I read this correctly? Going to the Greek, the first instance of the word sin, "hamartei," sounds exactly how it does in English; doesn't sin. The second, in the "everyone who sins," the word is "hamartAnwn." It's a present active device, though also a participle, where something acts as an adjective and as a verb. Young's Literal Translation probably gets closest to the Greek out of any translation, and it puts it this way: "every one who is remaining in him doth not sin; every one who is sinning, hath not seen him, nor known him." As a matter of fact, looking through the whole of 1 John 3:1-12, looking at my Greek text in front of me, much of what's in here is participle in nature, expressing an ongoing thing, and not one-time incidences. I'd look at the YLT for 1 John 3 to get an idea. From what I can tell (though I admit my Greek experience is quite young), it's a right translation. I notice too in v. 5 where it says "take away sins," the footnote in my Bible, and the YLT, and the Greek say "our sins," meaning those specific to us.

Then of course I get to John 5 and the rock gets heavy again. By verse 16 through 17, do I assume that any sin whatsoever robs a believer of life? What then is the sin that brings death, and the sin that doesn't? What is the need for God to give life to that person if the sin isn't unto death? What does that life entail? Life to not repeat the transgression, or to bring the brother back into grace after falling? But then why isn't it called the sin unto death? Or should we assume that any sin by default takes you from grace, and the sin that brings death just seals it, like blasphemy of the Spirit?

Perhaps the main question in my mind, if a person does not reach sinless perfection, then does this mean he'll be sentenced to hellfire?

If you want some sense of the questions going through my mind, there they are. I hate sin, I want it weeded out, and if the Bible says that I should be 100% sinless perfect, then I will do it, as it's what He commands. However, I do not want to put a weight on the back of a person that God never commanded us to carry. If the most I am ever to tell someone is to contend for holiness in every way, chance and form possible, to get as close as possible though they never reach it, then I will gladly tell them, though I would not add to the words of God.

 2009/8/25 12:19Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote:

Anastasis wrote:
I read all of 1 John this morning.

As one preliminary thought, John Wesley is known for addressing this issue. To sum it up briefly, Christian perfectionism vs. sinless perfection. John Wesley believed in perfectionism as, the best I know how to describe it, as a journey to perfection, and the complete surrender of oneself in every aspect to God, giving no inch to the devil; he would never accept the idea of sinless perfection though, as "...sinless perfection is a phrase I never use, lest I should seem to contradict myself." Apparently the ideas do not necessarily relate.



My view on Sinless perfection if Adam was perfect, sinless and he still fell. So we can never get to a place where we will never sin. Now do I believe we can get to a place where can resist the temptation to sin again yes I do.

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Jesus was at all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Heb 4:15

We should be like Jesus although tempted in all points we should not sin.

What we have in the world today is Carnal Christianity; with this type of Christianity it's impossible for us to resist the devil in all points.

What I mean is that our spirits are renewed but our hearts are not pure, so we have a disability in us we find that in our inner man we love the laws of God Roms 7:22 but in our members there is another force at work Paul calls it a another law Roms 7:23.

So we need a double cure one for the spirit the other for our members. When I speak about "our members" I need to clarify that our flesh and bone the body will not be changed until we meet Jesus in the air. So when we think "our members" I mean our souls which is our mind, will and emotions we could call our personality or character. This is the area where the friuts of your life will be evident for others to see.

In the Soul we have lusts Rev 18:14 we can also have unbelief and hopelessness Pslams 43:5 bitterness is also in the souls Job 21:25 I could go on but hope you get the point.

Know lets look for the double cure Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you. I will remove your stubborn hearts and give you obedient hearts. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

It says here A New Heart [b]and[/] a New Spirit it goes on to say in Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. This is what Paul speaks about in Rom 7:22 loving God laws in the inner man the Spirit. So we need God to take away the heart of stone and give us a heart of flesh.

God will do this so he can be sanctified in us Ezekiel 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

So this double cure is the work of sanctification of God in us why because he wants us to be Holy like he is Holy so we don't bring any reproach on his name.

When we read this we need to think of 2 types of sin, inbred sin and the sin we have committed.

1 John 1:5-10 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

God is Light

6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

What is the truth God is Light there is no darkness in him, if we walk in darkness and say we fellowship with him then we lie.

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If we walk with him in the light (remember there can be no darkness when we walk our we lie) we have fellowship with each other and the Blood cleanses us from [b]all[/] sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

This sin spoke of here is Inbred sin

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is the sin we have committed in our life.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

This is sin we have done in our life. Why would John say the same thin twice unless he was talking about two different types of sin. Sin and Sins.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

John writes this so we sin not this implies that we don't have to sin, but he also says if you do sin we have an advocate so. We can fall in temptation like Adam did but we can also walk like Jesus and be tested in ever point and did not sin but there is always the risk of falling.


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Colin Murray

 2009/8/27 9:09Profile
Anastasis
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Joined: 2009/7/1
Posts: 75


 Re:

I think I better see what you're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong. You're talking about the opposite of the carnal Christianity where we treat sin as a passive thing, almost--if not exactly like--antinomianism where we make no strive for holiness. However, since Christ has given us a new heart and mind, He has put it in us to overcome temptation, and has given us the ability to be successful, so we should never treat our condition like there's nothing that can be done about it; otherwise, why give us the clean heart? Why take out the heart of stone and put in its place one that desired obedience? Therefore, what excuse do we have not to strive for holiness? The point is to learn not to sin; though if you do, you have an advocate. It's not sinless perfection, but it's to have a heart, mind and spirit that abhors sin [u]and acts accordingly[/u]--and should it fall, has the grace of 1 John 2:1.

 2009/8/27 10:14Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
murrcolr wrote:

I have put up this quote as to what I was taught as a Babe in Christ and this is what I belived but know I find myself challenging this teaching. Why because there seems to be a part of me that like a magnet which always aligns to the North, I find in me something that would always [b]cause me to sin[/b]. I might try and resist but inside theres something that pulls me in another direction.

I found out that I was alive to Christ on my conversion, but as I went on I find that the old man did not die as I have been taught. It is him warring within it is him that is opposed to the things of God while he lives I can only dream of being able to fulfill Christs command of [b]"Go and sin no more"[/b]

This is called the flesh.

The flesh will give pleasure because of the senses. The flesh is amoral; it takes pleasure in what ever & however, good or bad, morally or immorally for it has no mind to discern.
This is unchangeable, it will remain this way even after we are saved; the flesh needs to be done away with. That will happen in the resurrection.

None the less, [b]the flesh is not the "[u]cause[/u]" of your sin[/b]! The cause is that you still have sympathy for the unlawful affections of your flesh.
The answer is to PRAY for deliverance and present your body a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service (Rom 12:1 and renewing your mind (Rom 12:2).

Hope this helps.

 2009/8/27 11:19Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
murrcolr wrote:
Quote:
paulmcg1 wrote:
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.



Paul this was on another post the brother who posted it gives a very good answer to your question.

Thanx, I was going to post it again, untill I saw that you did.

I'm glad to see some people actually read what I have to say> :-P

 2009/8/27 11:21Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

I had to look it up

Antinomianism:- is the idea that members of a particular religious group are under no obligation to obey the laws of ethics or morality, and that "Salvation" is by predestination only.

I am talking about Entering His Rest Hebrews 4:1 Hebrews 4:11 "He brought us out, that He might bring us in"--two parts of God's work of redemption--"He brought us out from Egypt, that He might bring us into Canaan." And that is applicable to every believer. At your conversion, God brought you out of Egypt, and the same almighty God is longing to bring you into the Canaan land.

[url=http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Master-s-Indwelling1.html]The Masters Indwelling By Andrew Murray[/url]


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Colin Murray

 2009/8/27 12:39Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently.

Peter lets us know here that thse christians souls had been purified but he also ties that in with having a pure heart.

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Hebrews 4:9-10 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

There is a rest for Gods people.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

He that enters the rest hath ceased from his own works that to me means a complete surrender to God's will.

Here is brief testimony of mine.

It starts with me walking out of the only church I had attended since I have known God. Now because of various reason and much praying which I won't go into here I decided to leave.

I had just crossed the street after leaving the church for the last time. I prayed Father, I know what you spoke to me about.........(My Calling), I believe what you have said, I don't know how you'll do it but I believe you'll do it. Mid step the Holy Spirit spoke to me "you'll be like Job". This as you can imagine was not what I wanted to hear.

Five years later in back slidden state while I was working in West Africa there I caught a viral infection this infection causes blisters to appear on the skin.

I needed to hear from God and decided to Fast and Pray. After my time of fasting and praying ended it was around the same time I was going back to work, I had this question in my head "what makes a great man of God great". So I went searching the internet to find out about the men of god to get a insight into their lives, I came across Duncan Campbell’s testimony on sermon index and (that's how I became a member on here) downloaded it onto my IPod to listen to it on the plane.

After having my meal the light was dimmed I got out my IPod and started to listen to Duncan's Testimony when I got to the point where Duncan says "Go for God whatever it takes" these words cut through me with tears streaming down my face I went to the toilet got on my knees (As best I could in a small toilet) and prayed. The sobs and tears just kept on coming I asked God to help me.

For my whole month while in Africa every time I had on my own with God he turned up all I seemed to able to do was weep. During this time God had been talking to me about Holiness and the need to be Holy, he should me that there was a system still in me that needs to be removed. This system is evil and it’s so wrapped up in your personality that you believe it's you, the reason you are who you are is because of this system, it controls, it manipulates, it lies, and it affects every part of you, your mind, your will and emotions.

When I got back to Scotland, I got a book from a woman who had not put it to print yet it was called Revival the Call of Holiness this was God confirming to me what had been speaking to me about in Africa.

From there I have started studying and reading up on the subject. I AM NOT sanctified (Made Holy) yet no but my faith level are increasing as I study the subject of Holiness.


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Colin Murray

 2009/8/27 14:53Profile
marleonetti
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Joined: 2012/6/24
Posts: 1


 Re: If we say we have no sin .....

John is making it clear that believers are sinners that need to confess thier sins when any have been committed. When Jesus told people to go and sin no more , He was revealing what God's will was for our lives but not revealing that it was possible to fulfill perfectly. I believe He knew that there is no way that people could live a totally sin free life especially when He had not even died and rose again yet when he told these people that. Also , these people did not even have all of the new testament scriptures and tools that we have today , and christians today still cannot rid their lives of sin completely. I notice two things about christians that tell other christians that they can be totally sinless. The first thing is these christians are not even sin free themselves in thier own lives , and the second thing is that they conveniently never quote any of the many scripture references by Paul and John that clearly reveal that we all still have an old sin nature that we can still give into in the flesh , yet still be considered saved and have the Spirit at the same time. " It is no longer I that do it , but sin that dwelleth in me "

 2012/6/24 17:04Profile





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