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 Re:

Free will is the power of choice, the ability to choose between obedience and disobedience.

Quote:
yes i am convinced scripture does tech free will



Man's ability to obey God or disobey God is explicitly and implicitly taught in Scriptures like these:

“And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him” (Gen. 4:6-7);

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life” (Deut. 30:19);

“And thou shalt remember all the way which the Lord thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no” (Deut. 8:2);

“Choose you this day whom ye will serve” (Josh. 24:15);

“That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the Lord to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not” (Judges 2:22)

 2009/8/18 2:24
Axe1338
Member



Joined: 2005/10/31
Posts: 120
Miami, Fl

 Re:

Monergism & Synergism, Calvinism & Arminianism, are biblically parallel truth's. Although I lean more towards one side I believe both are true.

 2009/8/18 10:21Profile









 Re:

Hhhhhmmmmm thanks for that post it is good to hear from the early church fathers. I think we have free will to but our free will now because we our lost and dead to sin and do the things of our flesh and we our blinded and our spiritual eyes our closed because of that. We only see the things as the world sees it and we love the things of the world, the things of God our foreign to us.Knowing that we our enemies of God by works we do not do anything still to change that.Our free will is to do what our sinful desires want and yes sometimes we make good decisions to do good and be nice and care about others but it is not like it would be in the fulness of the holy spirit, when we our lost we do things for selfish reasons most of the time or out of fear but not to serve God and love and not for the glory of God , we can't being lost our minds do not even think of him. Before you were saved did you care about the things of God and about living for gods glory, all of us should be saying no. We were dead in our sins and spiritually discerned. Our free will was to do whatever our sinful flesh desired, even if that meant good to some others. But we never were serving God. The question i think is that we think that we would have chosen God by our own free will, but we simply won't choose God unless God through holy spirit convicts and draws us to his son Jesus Christ and take the veil off our eyes. Has not that happened to you before in which you were once blind and then the veil was taken off of you because of the grace of God who did draws us as scripture says, nobody can come to Jesus unless the father draws him. That drawing is by the power of God, not by us and we know that. We have free will but like i said we were born sinners and our mothers womb we were born sinners, we do the things that our nature wants and that is not to live for God, it is still free will brothers and sisters because your doing it and choosing things but your nature is sinful and only desires and knows sin. When God saves you you our choosing still but you our listening and able to do because of the grace of God through his holy spirit, that is why it is all by his grace that we desire him and serve him and believe on him and thats why he gets all the glory. Look at all the lost around you do they desire to do the things of God by their own free will or could they care less.You have a misunderstanding what that article is saying, it is saying exactly what i just said but better.

Hey this is not to start another argument but doesn't david bercot believe in a works salvation, i was reading his book that you recommended and it seemed that he believed that, am i wrong?

 2009/8/18 12:33
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Monergism & Synergism, Calvinism & Arminianism, are biblically parallel truth's. Although I lean more towards one side I believe both are true.



Brother,

These systems of thought are mutually exclusive. It is impossible for both to be true.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/8/18 13:03Profile
Axe1338
Member



Joined: 2005/10/31
Posts: 120
Miami, Fl

 Re:

Quote:
These systems of thought are mutually exclusive. It is impossible for both to be true.



The bible shows both clearly exist, for example Jesus says "no one comes to the father lest the spirit draw him" but Jesus also says "you will not come to me that you may have life." So is it up to God or us? Both.

 2009/8/18 14:16Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Axe,

The Bible shows both what clearly exists? The fact that the Bible indicates that man has a responsibility to come to God, while also showing that nobody can come to God apart from the Spirit does not mean that Calvinism and Arminianism are both true. I could admit that it is theoretically possible for two generally contradicting systems to both share some elements of truth, while neither one is correct. But it is impossible for two systems which present contradictory statements to both be true in the same, full sense.

Based on our Lord's statement that no man can come to the Father lest the Spirit draws them, what can we conclude about those to whom Jesus says will not come to him? Well, we can conclude what the statement plainly says, that they don't desire to come to Jesus. Also, we can affirm the deeper, underlying reason why they won't come to Jesus, namely, that the Spirit has not drawn them.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/8/18 15:46Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Based on our Lord's statement that no man can come to the Father lest the Spirit draws them



I thought that this was a good explaination of how this verse is compatable with free will:

“No man can come to me, except the Father which sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:44

This passage must not be isolated or left alone because the following verse explains what it means. It is a sound principle of hermeneutics to allow the Bible to interpret itself. The context of a passage helps us to understand the passage itself. The following verse says, “It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” John 6:45

How then are men drawn by the Father? Are men drawn by a constitutional change? No. Men are drawn by moral means. Coming to Christ is a choice of the will, therefore the means used to bring about this choice are means which respect and regard the will of man. Coming to Christ is a choice of the will; therefore God brings men to Christ by influencing their will. God teaches men and this is what influences men to come to Jesus. The drawing of God is through revelation. This is no doubt how the Apostle Paul was converted (Acts 9:4), by a revelation of Jesus Christ. The Father draws men to His Son, by granting them a revelation of His Son and what He has done for us on the cross. “And if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me” (John 12:32).

If verse 44 was talking about a constitutional change, it could not be brought about by teaching as verse 45 says. Teaching has no tendency or ability to change the constitution of man. But if the drawing is brought about by teaching, as verse 45 says, than the drawing in verse 44 must be an influence upon the will of man. Truth influences the will and therefore teaching the truth has the ability to change the will of man.

I was pleased to find out that Albert Barnes also interpreted this passage the same way that I do. He said, “In the conversion of the sinner God enlightens the mind John 6:45, he inclines the will Psalms 110:3, and he influences the soul by motives, by just views of his law, by his love, his commands, and his threatenings; by a desire of happiness, and a consciousness of danger; by the Holy Spirit applying truth to the mind, and urging him to yield himself to the Saviour. So that, while God inclines him, and will have all the glory, man yields without compulsion; the obstacles are removed, and he becomes a willing servant of God”. He goes on to say, “Shall be all taught of God - This explains the preceding verse. It is by the teaching of his Word and Spirit that men are drawn to God. This shows that it is not compulsory, and that there is no obstacle in the way but a strong voluntary ignorance and unwillingness.”

Regarding man’s natural ability, man is only able to obey the truth that he knows. If a man does not know about Jesus, he is not able to believe in Jesus or to follow Jesus. Natural ability is not the ability to obey truth that you do not know; natural ability is the ability to obey the truth that you do know. Natural ability is not the ability to do the impossible (obey what is not known) but it is the ability to do the possible (obey what is known). Natural ability is the ability to obey, or disobey, the light or revelation that has been revealed or given. This is clearly stated by the Apostle Paul, “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?” (Romans 10:14). This shows, not only the necessity of open air preaching, but also the necessity for the work of the Spirit who takes the truth preached and presses it powerful upon the minds of men to influence their will to believe and call upon the Lord.

The point is that those who have not heard cannot believe, which explains why those who have not been taught by the Father cannot come to the Son. This perfectly explains why no man can come to the Son, unless He is drawn by the Father. Unless the Father first teaches sinners about His Son, they are not capable of believing in, coming to, or following the Son. And unless the Father first convicts men of their sin, they will not see their need of coming to the Savior. Teaching must always come before obedience. Knowledge, or truth, is a precondition or requisite for obedience. The will of man can only obey, or disobey, the knowledge that the mind has. Does man have the natural ability to believe in Jesus, whether they know about Jesus or not? The answer is of course not. Natural ability cannot do the impossible. But does man have the natural ability to believe in Jesus, come to Jesus, and follow Jesus, once the truth about Jesus is revealed to them? The answer is yes.

I would also quickly add that the mind operates under the law of necessity, but the will operates under the law of liberty. That is, the mind must affirm truth when it is presented, but the will can obey or disobey the truth that is affirmed by the mind. We see this with the crowd that Stephen preached to. “And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake” (Acts 6:10). Their minds, by necessity, affirmed the truth of what he preached. Their minds could not resist it. But it goes on to say, “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit, as your Fathers did, so do ye” (Acts 7:51). Their will operated under liberty. Their will disobeyed and resisted the truth that their minds affirmed. The revelation that God grants is irresistible. Men cannot help but to know the truth, when God reveals it. But sinners reject and suppress the truth that they have (Romans 1:18). Yet, according to John 6:45, those who not only hear the truth, but actually learn from it, come to Jesus Christ. Those who do not learn from what they hear from the Father will not come to the Son. But those who hear from the Father, and choose to learn from it, will come to the Son. Men resist or yield to the drawing of God by choosing to learn from, or not learn from, the teaching that He gives them.

 2009/8/18 16:01
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

truefaithsav,

I agree, God uses means to draw us to Himself, and these include teaching, other believers, and a variety of other things. However, we must also keep in mind that the natural man cannot receive the things of God unless his eyes are opened by God and he is given ears to hear.

Seeking to grow in grace and knowledge with you,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/8/18 18:54Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

I understand my response is long, and have therefore recorded myself dictating it. For an audio version (.mp3) please PM me.

***

For almost six months I have avoided these discussions on SI, but it is truly a great sorrow on my soul to see such worldly wisdom being spouted forth to the shame of Christ's redemption. I have written the following with grief and love, and no striving spirit, for the hope that Christ might be glorified. Please receive it as such.


Perhaps we may see more clearly if we look at the subject of the will from a different vantage?


May I ask in all seriousness, does God have a free will? To what extent? Is God free to lie? Could He sin if He wanted to?

"But He will never want to!" you exclaim.

And why not? How are you so certain that God will never choose to deceive, lust, or in any other way to sin?

You know that God will never choose to sin because you have an almost innate understanding that all choices of the will flow out from the nature of a being. God's choices reflect His nature, and His nature is holy. It is not the will which decides anything; the will is only that which acts upon the behalf of one's judgment, which is rooted in the heart, or "nature". Again, God's nature is immutably holy, therefore He wills only ever to do that which concurs with His holy judgment and gratifies His holy nature. In the sense that God is unchanging, He [b]cannot will[/b] to sin, simply because [b]His nature will never approve of it[/b]. His will and all wills, act only within the bounds of the nature and judgment of the willful being.

Let us turn this lens upon mankind. Our above statements are confirmed in Jeremiah 17:9-10, when God refers to man's heart as the "reins", or that which guides and controls the direction of a creature. In the same passage, we read, "I the Lord search the heart," and what does He find? Man is not holy. In fact, his heart, the seat of all judgment, is called "deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked." Of Adam's fallen race it is written, "every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." [Gen. 6:5] It is to the heart, and not the will, which Jesus points when He says, "out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." [Matt. 15:19]

When a man's heart approves of sin more than obedience, his will immediately sets about to fulfill the judgment of the heart. The will of the being can only perform that which the judgment of the heart most approves at a given time. One may wrestle in his judgment between several options, but the moment he has judged, the will acts in service to the judgment. The judgment receives its values from the heart, or nature.

For this reason we must understand that though man's will is not in bondage to the external control of any other person, yet his will is subject to his own nature. If his nature, the seat of judgment and desire, is dominated by sin and is captivated by the deceitful enticements of Satan, that man can and will only choose to follow sin. He will do so willingly, and continuously until he is somehow brought to judge obedience as being more heartily desirable.

The bible teaches that man's judgment will entertain numerous carnal options, but will consistently refuse that which is spiritual.

"The natural man [b]does not receive[/b] the things of the Spirit of God: for [b]they are foolishness[/b] unto him: [b]neither can he know them[/b], because they are spiritually discerned." [1 Cor. 2:14]


"This is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men [b]loved darkness rather than light[/b], because their deeds were evil. For [b]every one[/b] that doeth evil [b]hateth the light, neither cometh to the light[/b], lest his deeds should be reproved." John 3:19-20

According to his fallen nature man does not come to the light. He cannot, simply because it disgusts him. His judgment disapproves of holiness, humility, and grace, when compared to the pleasures of sin for a season. He needs desperately to receive a new nature, but the nature of man is received only at the time of conception. Hence Jesus says in this passage that, "unless a man is born again, he [b]cannot see[/b] the kingdom of heaven." In other words, natural man needs a new nature, coming from a spiritual birth, in order to have eyes to see, that is, judgment which approves of God's means of redemption.

This natural hardness of man is so great that Jesus makes the breathtaking statement, "[b]no man comes to me[/b]..." [John 6:44]

Though this self-wrought sinful bondage is alone enough to prevent man from coming to Christ in faith, he is doubly prevented by the deceit of the devil. So greatly does the devil deceive unregenerate man, that the bible uses language such as, "bondage", "captivity", and "slave" to describe the subjected relationship man has to the devil.

Paul tells Timothy to instruct opponents with meekness, "for [b]perhaps God will give them repentance[/b] to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are [b]taken captive by him at his will[/b]." [2 Tim. 2:24-26] The entire basis of Christian meekness is the understanding that God is free to change hearts, which results in changed behavior. Teachers do not need to be headstrong and coerce people into obedience, since God has freedom to transform the hearts of men.

Paul adds elsewhere, "The god of this world (the devil) has [b]blinded the minds of the unbelievers[/b], to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ who is the image of God." [2 Cor 4:4]

This is precisely why unregenerate men must first be given "new hearts."

"A [b]new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you[/b]: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an [b]heart of flesh[/b]. And I will put my Spirit within you, and [b]cause you to walk in my statutes[/b], and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." [Ezekiel 36:26-27] Note that until God gives a new heart, the person has a stony, rebelious one. While he is yet a dead cold stone, God makes him a new living creation and places an obedient spirit within him. God does not need to make man will anything - He needs only to change man's nature, and the will of the man begins to act according to the new system of judgement.

This new nature is granted through the spiritual birth of regeneration. Just as those born of Adam are sinful, so those born of the Spirit are begotten after His holy nature. And how does this begetting come? According to the analogy of birth, it comes by the sovereign conception of the parent - the will of God and not of man. Those who receive Christ do so because they are first "born, [b]not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God[/b]." [John 1:12] To the Christians, Paul writes, "You hath he regenerated, who were [b]dead in trespasses and sins[/b]... [who] were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, [b]even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ[/b], (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [b]not of yourselves[/b]: it is the [b]gift of God[/b]:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his [b]workmanship, created in Christ Jesus[/b] unto good works." [Eph 2:1-10]

Note, it is salvation itself which is the gift, not merely the "offer" of salvation. It is being re-created which Paul is rejoicing in, and not the opportunity of re-creating ourselves through human volition.

Again, it is not enough for bad trees to will to produce good fruit; they must become entirely different "good trees." [Matt 7] "Bad trees [b]cannot[/b] bear good fruit." Is there any better fruit than faith in Christ. Every man is naturally a bad tree, and cannot please God.

If this topic has been expired, perhaps you will allow me to close with this brief explanation of sovereign grace.

What's the idea behind Sovereign Grace?

In the beginning God made man upright, capable either of obeying the Lord or choosing to sin. God covenanted with Adam in the garden, promising him life if he would obey the commands of God, and eternal death if he would not. The Lord was free to make this arrangement, even as He made similar arrangements with the angels.

When Adam fell, so did all the race which he federally represented. For this reason Paul writes [Rom 5:10-21], "through the offense of one many be dead," speaking not of physical death but of spiritual death which brings damnation. All men have the guilt not only of their Head, but have inherited the sinful nature of Adam, and so run immediately to many wicked inventions.

No amount of external obedience to God's Law can resolve the debt of justice which hangs over man. No choice or action of itself can merit eternal life. Worse, natural man wants neither heavenly life nor hellish punishment, but only sin forever. If a way could be found to give men life, and that way required man to quit sin, he would not take it. It is foolishness to him.

God the Son, born of a virgin, made under the Law, came and fulfilled the obedience which God required under the first covenant, and thereby merited eternal life for Himself and those He federally represented. He bore their sins, even the sins of all who would believe, and rose to justify them. Now He sends forth the Spirit to regenerate the elect, so that having receives new eyes, new natures, new hearts, and new spirits, they receive Christ in the gospel. These are even those who simply believe the promise of the gospel, that as many as come to Him shall in no wise be cast out", who have forsaken the world to trust that on account of His obedience they are justified of all things. Their choice to believe is their own, but the heart to believe is from God.

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." [John 6:44]

"We ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." [Titus 3:3-8]

 2009/8/18 20:16Profile









 Re:

If these verses do not teach that man’s will is free to choose between obedience and disobedience, than nothing ever would!

“Behold I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; a blessing if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God…. And a curse if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God….” Deut. 11:26-28

Man is free to choose between blessing and cursing, between obedience and disobedience.

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life…” Deut. 30:19

"I have set before you" means that it is our choice. God does not make the choice for us. God gives us the freedom to choose. "life and death, blessing and cursing" means that we have two options which we can "choose" between.

Man is free by nature. It is very clear in the Bible that we are capable of obedience or disobedience, that our will is free to choose between these two options. Free will is part of our nature and therefore we are naturally free to choose between obeying the Lord or disobeying the Lord.

Nobody is forced to disobey and nobody is forced to obey. But we are free to do either. Those who sin are capable of not sinning. Those who don’t sin are capable of sinning. Those who are loyal to God are capable of rebelling. Those who have rebelled against God are capable of obeying. The disobedient are capable of obeying and the obedient are capable of disobedience. Our will is always free to choose between these two options.

If our nature necessitated our will, nobody would ever sin, because our conscience tells us not to! If our nature determines our will, nobody would be a homosexual because that is against human nature! If our nature necessitated our will, Adam and Eve and Lucifer would not have sinned! Our nature does not necessitate our will, but part of our nature is free will.

ADAM CLARKE SAID ABOUT THESE VERSES:

"Deu 11:26
Behold, I set before you - a blessing and a curse - If God had not put it in the power of this people either to obey or disobey; if they had not had a free will, over which they had complete authority, to use it either in the way of willing or nilling; could God, with any propriety, have given such precepts as these, sanctioned with such promises and threatenings? If they were not free agents, they could not be punished for disobedience, nor could they, in any sense of the word, have been rewardable for obedience. A Stone is not rewardable because, in obedience to the laws of gravitation, it always tends to the center; nor is it punishable be cause, in being removed from that center, in its tending or falling towards it again it takes away the life of a man.

That God has given man a free, self-determining Will, which cannot be forced by any power but that which is omnipotent, and which God himself never will force, is declared in the most formal manner through the whole of the sacred writings. No argument can affect this, while the Bible is considered as a Divine revelation; no sophistry can explain away its evidence, as long as the accountableness of man for his conduct is admitted, and as long as the eternal bounds of moral good and evil remain, and the essential distinctions between vice and virtue exist. If ye will obey, (for God is ever ready to assist), ye shall live; if ye will disobey and refuse that help, ye shall die. So hath Jehovah spoken, and man cannot reverse it." Adam Clarke

 2009/8/19 0:26





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