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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What is justification by works of the law?

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imnowhere
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Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69


 Re:

Ps 115:1 Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth’s sake.

 2009/8/15 11:29Profile
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say; but you never heard an Arminian prayer - for the saints in prayer appear as one in word, and deed and mind. An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about free-will: there is no room for it. Fancy him praying,

[b]"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them." [/b]

That is a prayer for the devil, for nobody else would offer such a prayer as that...

Spurgeon


 2009/8/15 12:05Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
ceedub wrote:

"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself;

The reason why anyone is condemned is because they had a free will and able to Christ, but chose not to.
If they weren't able to& had no free will, there would be no reason to be condemned.

Quote:
I have improved my grace.

Responding in the way one is supposed to is not improving grace, but accepting the grace as sufficient & acting upon it.
.

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If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved.

AMEN!!
The reason for being condemned is because they were able todo the same with the all sufficient grace, but refused to.

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Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves.

God has His ways of influence & persuasion to make one will, however, some still refuse, which is why they are condemned.

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Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do.

again, it's not improving grace, but accepting the grace as sufficient & acting upon it.


Quote:
There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was;

They who refuse Christ are not bought. those who are bought are the ones who obey the command to put their faith in/on Christ & what He said & done and repent as proofe of that faith.

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they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them;

No, they didn't.
The Holy Ghost is only given to those who put their own faith in/on Christ & what He said & done.

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they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am.

Amen!!!
That is why they are condemed.

Quote:
It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."

Yes, amen!!! That is why they are condemed.


Quote:
That is a prayer for the devil,

The Devil would never pray like that, don't be ridiculous.

Quote:
for nobody else would offer such a prayer as that...

It is close to being spot on. It is not realy a prayer though, but common sense thinking, why wouldn't anyone think this if they are truly saved.

If tjis is a sarcastic "prayer" and you realy think the opposite of this, then no one goex to hell for disobedience/rebellion, but because of disability.

 2009/8/15 15:28Profile
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

Quote:
It is close to being spot on. It is not realy a prayer though, but common sense thinking, why wouldn't anyone think this if they are truly saved?

Quote:
If tjis is a sarcastic "prayer" and you realy think the opposite of this, then no one goex to hell for disobedience/rebellion, but because of disability.




It was simply some food for thought. The prayer that Charles Spurgeon penned as an inutterable 'prayer for the devil', you say is close to being 'spot on'.

When I used to hate Limited Atonement or even the mention of it, I came across a quote by Spurgeon in which he said it (universal atonement) was one of the worst heresies to ever creep into the church. I said to a friend, 'Either Spurgeon is dead wrong or I don't get it'. Turns out, I didn't get it.

For me, it would at least throw up a flag. Not that any of us should believe something because another did, but when Spurgeon calls a prayer a 'prayer for the devil' and you call it 'spot on' and 'common sense thinking', one of you is way off.

Time will tell. But most don't think of Spurgeon as 'ridiculous', as you stated.

Stay diligent in your study. No one can accuse you of being luke warm.

 2009/8/15 17:37Profile
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

The Modern Judaizers

The particular form of merit which they induced men to seek was the merit of keeping the law of Moses, particularly the ceremonial law. At first sight, that fact might seem to destroy the usefulness of the Epistle for the present day; for we of today are in no danger of desiring to keep Jewish fasts and feasts. But a little consideration will show that that is not at all the case. The really essential thing about the Judaizers' contention was not found in those particular "works of the law" that they urged upon the Galatians as being one of the grounds of salvation, but in the fact that they urged any works in this sense at all. The really serious error into which they fell was not that they carried the ceremonial law over into the new dispensation whither God did not intend it to be carried, but that they preached a religion of human merit as over against a religion of divine grace.

So the error of the Judaizers is a very modern error indeed, as well as a very ancient error. It is found in the modern Church wherever men seek salvation by "surrender" instead of by faith, or by their own character instead of by the imputed righteousness of Christ, or by "making Christ master in the life" instead of by trusting in His redeeming blood. In particular, it is found wherever men say "the real essentials" of Christianity are love, justice, mercy and other virtues, as contrasted with the great doctrines of God's Word. These are all just different ways of exalting the merit of man over against the Cross of Christ, they are all of them attacks upon the very heart and core of the Christian religion. And against all of them the mighty polemic of this Epistle to the Galatians is turned.

J Gresham Machen


 2009/8/15 18:52Profile









 Re:

Quote:
salvation by "surrender" instead of by faith



How is faith contrary to surrendering to God? Faithfulness is loyalty. Loyalty is the opposite of rebellion. Surrendering is the giving up of rebellion. When a person puts their faith in Christ, they become faithful or loyal to Him. If a person becomes faithful or loyal to Christ, what is this but surrendering or giving up rebellion? Faith results in surrender and obedience. Faith results in faithfulness (loyalty).

When a sinner puts their trust in Christ, they embrace Him as Savior and Lord. To put your faith in Christ means that you trust Him as Lord and as Savior. You trust His teachings and you trust His atonement. When a man trusts Jesus as their Lord, they will obey Him. And when a man trusts Jesus as Savior, they believe that grace and mercy is available because of the atonement. Faith results in surrender and obedience. The Bible says that we are "sanctified by faith" that we are "purified by faith" and that we have a "faith that works by love".

Any faith that does not surrender to Jesus Christ is not true faith at all. If we fully trust Christ, we will fully surrender and fully obey. If we do not fully surrender and fully obey, we do not fully trust. Faith and surrender are not enemies, they are friends.

 2009/8/15 23:28









 Re:

Quote:
You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say; but you never heard an Arminian prayer - for the saints in prayer appear as one in word, and deed and mind. An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about free-will: there is no room for it.



I pray for God to save sinners, but not to save them by force but by influence. I pray for God to influence the free will of man, so that man completely repents and believes and is thus saved. I pray for God to send missionaries, to send preachers, to send the Holy Spirit to influence the free will of man with the powerful truths of the Gospel.

I have heard it said, "Every Calvinist is an open theist when he prays". That is because in prayer, you believe that God can determine the future, or that the future is open to God and therefore God is able to determine it. if everything was eternally foreknown God couldn't determine anything at all because everything would already be eternally certain. But if the future has genuine possibilities which God can choose between then God can determine certain events to occur. But if God knew from all of eternity that you would die August 20th, 2009, than not even God can help you or else His foreknowledge would be wrong!

Moses prayed when God wanted to destroy Israel and his prayer changed the mind of God. Hezekiah prayed when God said he would die and God added fifteen years to his life. The prayers of men have changed the mind of God! God takes into consideration the prayers of His people. It seems that Moses and Hezekiah were open theists when they prayed. Even Jesus said that he could pray for twelve legions of angels and they could deliver him - his future could have been different if he choose to pray. Jesus had open possibilities to pick between: the cross or deliverance by angels. It seems that Jesus was an open theist in his view of prayer.

But this is getting WAY off topic. Let's not turn this into a Calvinist controversy thread!


 2009/8/15 23:33
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

Quote:
I pray for God to influence the free will of man, so that man completely repents and believes and is thus saved.



Then it wouldn't be free would it? (Edwards on the Freedom of the Will)


Quote:
I have heard it said, "Every Calvinist is an open theist when he prays".



Then you might want to narrow down where you're getting your info about Calvinists. I've read hundreds and haven't come across an open-theist one yet (not that there aren't.).


Quote:
That is because in prayer, you believe that God can determine the future, or that the future is open to God and therefore God is able to determine it. if everything was eternally foreknown God couldn't determine anything at all because everything would already be eternally certain.



Isaiah 46:9-11 says that the reason God knows the future is because God will do what He purposes. That's how He knows. That's why He says none are like Him. He's the only one who knows the future because He will make it what He wants it to be.

Open Theism is heretical. It makes God the narrator instead of the author.


Quote:
if everything was eternally foreknown God couldn't determine anything at all because everything would already be eternally certain. But if the future has genuine possibilities which God can choose between then God can determine certain events to occur. But if God knew from all of eternity that you would die August 20th, 2009, than not even God can help you or else His foreknowledge would be wrong!



?


Quote:
Moses prayed when God wanted to destroy Israel and his prayer changed the mind of God.



So, there's no way here that God is showing Moses as a type of Christ, an intercessor for God's people. But rather God was about to make a big mistake, wipe out Israel, and then regret it afterwards, but thanks to Moses, he was able to calm God down and give him better wisdom. Is that what you're saying or am I misreading you?


Quote:
It seems that Moses and Hezekiah were open theists when they prayed.



Might want to ease up on some of these assumptions. We should all remember James warnings about teaching.


Quote:
Let's not turn this into a Calvinist controversy thread!



Thanks for trying to avoid that.

 2009/8/16 0:11Profile
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

Quote:
How is faith contrary to surrendering to God?



What the author is saying is that believing that your surrendering day to day is what is saving you as opposed to the death of Christ, would be a grave error.

What did the atonement of Christ accomplish in your opinion? You said you believe in it. How so? What did Christ's death do, save you or only make you saveable based on your actions?

 2009/8/16 0:15Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Is repentance of sins what saves us?

Is it my own personal sin that sends me to hell?

Is it baptism that saves me?

What does it benefit a person who repents of his sins?

Answer: No and nothing.

It is God who saves me, by His precious Grace, which is Christ and Christ alone, by Faith and that not my faith, but the faith of the Son of God.

What does it say we have to do to be saved?

Believe, Believe, Believe, and Believe again Believe, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the praise is to God, He cleanses me from all sin and unrighteousness. His Job man, not my Job. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, Christ death on the cross pays for all sin, confessed or un- cconfessed, but confession shows we love the Christ that dies for us and wants to be like Him, being conformed to His image, which only He can accomplish in us, by His Spirit we are healed, by His Spirit we are cleansed, By His Spirit we are, from God made in the cleansing by Christ, wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption, no repentance for wisdom, no repentance for righteousness, no repentance for sanctification, no repentance for redemption, Just God making Christ in us all these things are salvation. Repenting does not get you forgiveness, only confession of any mans sin gets forgiveness and faithfully and justly cleansed from all unrighteousness.

The only true repentance I see, is to believe what God says in Truth, and light, not a lie and darkness; This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. Revealed by the Father to even Peter, for Jesus knew it was not Peter who has this wisdom, for He said, "My Father in heaven has revealed this to you Peter, little pebble and upon the Rock of this revelation that I, Jesus am the Son of God, this is the Rock I will build my Church upon. How is every man presented perfect to God and fulfill all of scripture?

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Again and Again "God would make known" and we strive in this revelation and Rock of the Church, "according to His working, which is might to save.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2009/8/16 4:08Profile





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