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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What is justification by works of the law?

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 Re:

I think it would be best for this thread to stay on topic "Justification by works of the law" and not get side tracked into predestination, but I wanted to quickly address these points:

Quote:
I think that the context is how God has sovereignly cut off Israel




Quote:
Rom 11:1 ¶ I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew...



Yes the Jews that believe were not cut off. But the Jews that did not believe were cutt of.

"because of unbelief they were broken off" Rom. 11:20

Paul says that they are not all Israel that are of the seed of Abraham, but those who believe are the true Israel (Rom. 9:6).



Quote:
because they do not meet the conditions of their election (for their unbelief) but the Gentiles were granted in because they met the conditions of their election (belief).



Quote:
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
John 1:12-13, Romans 9:16



That verse has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with God choosing the Israelites to be the chosen people through which the Messiah would come. Genesis says that through the seed of Abraham ALL NATIONS would be blessed Gen. 22:18 . Isaiah says Israel was chosen to be a LIGHT unto the GENTILES Isa. 42:6 and Isa. 49:6 . God chose Jacob for this purpose. Jacob was not chosen for unconditional salvation. "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated" has nothing to do with being chosen for salvation or reprobation.

Romans 11 is clear that Israel was cut off because of unbelief, but the Gentiles were grafted in because of faith. That has to do with salvation.

Quote:


The context of Romans 10 and 11 give us great insight into Romans 9. Paul starts off Romans 9 talking about the Jew/Gentile issue




Quote:
Might want to relook at Romans 9 again and give it a few read overs. John Piper did a 7 year (I think) work on Romans 9:1-23 titled, 'The Justification of God'. He spent a fair amount of time looking at Romans 9 and has come up with a very different interpretation.



I have done a 9 year study of romans 9 and have come up with a very different interpretation than Piper.

Quote:
It was never about God predestination individuals for Heaven and Hell. Esau was not chosen for reprobation, Jacob was not chosen for automatic salvation. That had to do with who the chosen people would be, who the Messiah would come at through, etc. Esau represented Edom (Gentiles) and Jacob represented Israel (Jews).



Quote:
That's a difficult one. You're saying that Paul verifies the truth before the Spirit and the Son (Romans 9:1-5) in wishing that he could be cut off from Christ and accursed if what? if his jewish brethren according to the flesh could what? be in the line of the Messiah? They already were. Be saved? Yes! Why did Paul wish he could be accursed from Christ (strongest statement in the bible), testifying he is speaking the truth, and for what? governmental favour? Lineage they already had?
I don't think so. Take another look. With Paul's context.



What you are saying doesn't make any sense. Why would Paul want to be accursed so that God would choose Jacob over Esau? He has already done that! If Jacob was chosen for automatical salvation, why would Paul want to be cut off so that Israel could be saved?

The fact that God chose Jacob over Esau, yet Israel was cutt off for unbelief, and Paul wishes that He could be cut off instead of them, is absolute proof that God did not choose Jacob for salvation, or Esau for damnation. Jacob was chosen to be the Promised Nation. Esau was not chosen to be the promised Nation.

Jacob was not chosen because he was good, Esau was not rejected because he was bad. If this was talking about salvation and reprobation, it would be saying that Jacob was not chosen because of any good, but Esau was not rejected because of anything bad. Does God condemn people to hell before they deserve it? before they do anything bad? Is this saying that God choose Esau for eternal hell, not because of any sin, but because of His soveriegn will? The Bible is clear that people go to hell for sin. Again, Esau was not chosen for Hell, Esau was simply not chosen to be the Promised Nation.

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Many are called, but the chosen are few, because God only chooses to save those who choose to respond to the call.




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Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.



Verse 20 is about how God has chosen the Gentiles.

Verse 21 is about how God wanted Israel to be saved, yet they were not saved because of their choice to be disobedient. That shows free will is involved in salvation. If only God's will was involved in salvation, Israel would have been completely saved.

Israel was the vessel of wrath, which fitted themselves to destruction (Jer. 18:4) that God endured with much LONGSUFFERING (Rom. 9:22). God loved Israel, but because of their consistent disobedience, God turned them into vessels of wrath.

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Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.



Yes, the election of grace is that God saves those who believe. There was a remnant of Israelites that believed, therefore there was a remnant of Isrealites who were saved.


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Faith and repentance. Gifts? (2 Tim 2:24-25, Phil 1:29)



God gives us the opportunity to repent and believe, but repenting and believing our own choice. Those verses simply teach that God gives us the opportunity.


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As Spurgeon said, as long as Romans 9:16 is in the bible, free-will theology doesn't have a chance.



That doesn't make any sense. How could one chapter in the Bible undue the rest of the Bible? Especially when that one chapter has nothing to do with unconditional salvation vs. free will?

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But you didn't answer my question. Who was contending with Paul's gospel, the one who believed in God's sovereign election of grace (no procuring merit), or those that held to free-will doctrine?



I did address your question. It was the Jews who would think they could find unrighteousness with God for cutting them off, because He made a promise to them, they were the chosen people.

Romans 9 has absolutely nothing to do with "sovereign election" or "free will". You are reading this passage through the eyes of the Reformers instead of through the eye of the Apostle. The question in the reformation was "does God predestination individuals?" But this was not a question in the Early Church. Paul was not arguging or discussing that question. The question in the Early Church was, "has God also chosen the Gentiles?" That is what Paul was arguing for: http://www.libraryoftheology.com/predestinationwritings.html


 2009/8/14 19:48
Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

I want to give a public warning to everyone concerning truefaithsav's post. At this time we ought to be wise and identify and discern right from wrong, but so many are going to be swept away in this ungodly deception. It's the age old wickedness being cloaked in a new disguise. What it is called is the "New Perspective of Paul" and it is a complete and total undermining of the gospel of grace as revealed in the Scriptures.

The New Perspective on Paul argues that when Paul was speaking about the law he was only referring to the ceremonial aspect of the Jewish law of Moses. This is utter blasphemy and total ignorance. Those who espouse this view are completely ignorant of what the law is. Truefaithsav wrote that Paul's use of the law only referred to the Torah. What is the Torah but the entire law of God - all the commandments given by Moses demanding the obedience of all who are under it? You cannot cut the law up into separate divisions as they do to maintain a gospel of works. That is what they are trying to do; it is heresy. If we accept this damnable idea then Christ has died for nothing - according to them a person must be morally flawless in order to gain eternal life.

God has told us otherwise in the Scriptures. Even before Moses the Scripture tells us that no one will be just in the sight of God by works. "How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?" (Job 25:4-6) How dare any man say they are just before God by their works - to say that their walk is righteous - that they entirely fulfill the demands of right? This is what the New Perspective is attempting to say.

"And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified." (Psalm 143:2)

No man living - whether Jew or Gentile, or anyone alive to this day - is justified in God sight. Except for the imputed righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ all will be eternally condemned forever. Anyone attempting to establish their own righteousness before God will be condemned.

The New Perspective drags the gospel in the dirt when it says that Paul is merely referring to the abolition of the ceremonial distinction between Jew and Gentile. They say that circumcision and feasts only are gone, but still men must live righteous lives to be just before God! What a trifling of the glorious gospel of grace! No wonder Paul vehemently opposed the Judaizers to their face, for so much more was at stake than just a social issue! We are dealing with an eternal justice!

I publicly defy this deceptive doctrine and warn everyone on here concerning it. Paul was not arguing for anything less than the righteousness of God. The law is one whole - it includes every moral command ever given. To say otherwise is to deny the words of the Lord Jesus who said: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (Matthew 22:37-40) It is to deny the inspired apostle who wrote clearly that according to morality in the sight of God there is "none righteous, no not one" and that whether one is Jew or Gentile, "by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:20) The gospel is all about "the righteousness God without the law" (Romans 3:21) that "justifies freely" (Romans 3:24) ungodly sinners (Romans 4:5) who believe in the blood of Christ on Calvary. If you wish to see what the apostle Paul truly meant when he spoke about "the law", click [url=http://www.timothyministry.com/2007/12/evidence-that-law-includes-moral-law.html]here[/url].

If any man preaches another gospel than that which has been preached, let him be accursed. If anyone is fooled into believing this deceptive undermining of the old evangelical gospel, they do so at the cost of their own souls. I could not be more serious.

"They be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." (Matthew 15:14)

"Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith." (Philippians 3:8-9)

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." (Galatians 6:14)


_________________
Eli Brayley

 2009/8/14 20:18Profile









 Re:

Quote:
What it is called is the "New Perspective of Paul"



I don't even know what the New Perspective of Paul is. I have never studied that theology. I have simply studied the Scriptures.

Quote:
The New Perspective on Paul argues that when Paul was speaking about the law he was only referring to the ceremonial aspect of the Jewish law of Moses. This is utter blasphemy and total ignorance. Those who espouse this view are completely ignorant of what the law is. Truefaithsav wrote that Paul's use of the law only referred to the Torah.



Is that what they teach? The New Perspective of Paul is wrong then! The Torah included the moral law. Paul said that we cannot be justified by the works of the law (Torah) for by the law is the knowledge of SIN. The Torah not only included the law of circumcision, it also included the Ten Commandments. The moral law cannot declare us just (justify us) because we are not innocent. We must be justified by grace, since we dont deserve justification.

My point was that Paul was not arguing against repenting of your sins (as the NT teaches we must), Paul was arguing against the idea that Gentiles need to obey the Torah and be circumcised. Gentiles were never under the Torah in the Old Testament and they do not need to be under the Torah in the New Testament.

But Gentiles were under the moral law in the OT and in the NT. Gentiles do not need to be circumcised, but they do need to repent of their sins and trust in Christ.

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according to them a person must be morally flawless in order to gain eternal life.



It is impossible to be morally flawless because we have all sinned. Only Jesus was morally flawless. But we can change our mind about sin (repent) and be forgiven, and through Jesus we can have victory over all sin.

Gentiles do not need to obey the Torah to be saved. Gentiles do not need to be circumcised to be saved.

How did God save Nineveh the Gentile city? Were they circumcised or become Jews? NO! It says that they:

1. Believed God - Jonah 3:5
2. Turned from their sins - Jonah 3:8

That is how God saved Gentiles in the OT and that is how God saves Gentiles in the NT. Gentiles do not need to become Jewish, Nineveh did not. If Gentiles will repent and believe, God will gaciously and mercifully forgive.

"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren and said, except ye be CIRCUMCISED AFTER THE MANNER OF MOSES, YE CANNOT BE SAVED." Acts 15:1

"But neither Titus who was with me, being a GREEK, was compelled to be CIRCUMCISED. And that because of FALSE BRETHREN unawares brought in who came privily to spy out our LIBERTY which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into BONDAGE, to whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour, that the truth of the Gospel might continue with you.... But contrariwise, when they saw that the GOSPEL OF THE UNCIRCUMSISION was committed unto me..." Gal 2:3-7

"Therefore we conclude that aman is justified by faith WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW. Is he the God of the JEWS only? is he not also of the GENTILES? Yes of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God which shall justify the CIRCUMCISION by faith, and the UNCIRCUMCISION through faith." Romans 3:28-30

"Behold I Paul say unto you that if ye be CIRCUMCISED, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is CIRCUMCISED, that he is a debtor to do the WHOLE LAW. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever you are that are JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW, ye are fallen from grace." Gal. 5:2-4

"And unto the JEWS I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are UNDER THE LAW as under the law, That I might gain them that are under the law. To them that are WITHOUT LAW as without law (being not without LAW TO GOD, but UNDER the LAW TO CHRIST) that I might gain them that are without law" (1 Co. 9:20-21)

This was so important I wanted to share it again:

Quote:
How did God save Nineveh the Gentile city? Were they circumcised or become Jews? NO! It says that they:

1. Believed God - Jonah 3:5
2. Turned from their sins - Jonah 3:8

That is how God saved Gentiles in the OT and that is how God saves Gentiles in the NT. Gentiles do not need to become Jewish, Nineveh did not. If Gentiles will repent and believe, God will gaciously and mercifully forgive.



We are not saved by works of the law (circumcision, etc). We are saved by believing and repenting (faith). Faith is when we embrace Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, when we trust Him as our Lord and Savior.

 2009/8/14 20:42









 Re:

Here is the question, is a person saved by mere belief, or by believing and repenting? Does faith consist in embracing Jesus as Savior only, or does it also include embracing Him as Lord?

If a person believes, but they do not repent of their sins, are they saved?

If a person believes in Christ, but they continue to cheat on their wife and murder their neighbor (break the moral law), are they saved because they believe?

Does mere belief save, without repentance? Does a person need to repent of their sins, or change their mind about breaking the moral law, in order to be pardoned? Why would a Ruler pardon a criminal who still plans on committing crimes? A good Ruler would only pardon a criminal who has had a change of mind about crime. Changing your mind about sinning (repentance) is not a work of the law. There is a huge difference between a "work" and a "change of mind". Being circumcised is a work, changing your mind about sin is not a work.

If a person intellectually consents to the atonement of Christ, but their heart is still set on sinning, they are not forgiven. Until the heart forsakes sin, God does not pardon.

I believe that it is possible for a person to believe in Jesus, that He died for their sins, and still go to hell, if they do not turn from their sins. If a person believes that Jesus died for their sins, but they do not forsake their sins, their belief does not save them. Their faith is dead and cannot save. A living faith includes forsaking sin and only a living faith saves.

The person who believes in Jesus, but continues on their sins, only has the "faith of devils" as Catherine Booth put it.

 2009/8/14 22:37
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3697
Ca.

 Re:

I don't know your name, but I know the Spirit in you.

Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

John 3:15-21 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Even unto repentance, very few understand repentance, unto salvation. It is not my sins that condemns me, it is my non belief, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, to believe this is the true repentance that God requires for salvation, and He even provides the Faith to repent, by the Faith of the Christ that is in us when we believe.

What was Adams original sin? He believed a lie more than He believed God. In doing this he received the spirit of darkness, Satan as his believer and God instantly was out and Satan was in.

True repentance is now believing what God says is truth and not a lie. In doing this, instantly we receive the spirit of light, now Satan is out and Christ is in. How can we do this believing?

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Again How? "but now is made manifest to His saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"

God makes it known and is manifest to us His saints and we can repent and believe the truth. The liar is out and Christ is in.

In Repentance and believing Jesus Christ is the Son of God and saved and reborn by the Incorruptable Seed of Christ By His Spirit that is in me, a son God by the Son of God:

Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2009/8/14 22:41Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

[quotetruefaithsav wrote:
Here is the question, is a person saved by mere belief, or by believing and repenting?


Repentance proves their faith (belief) to be real!

Quote:
Does faith consist in embracing Jesus as Savior only, or does it also include embracing Him as Lord?

To not embrace Christ as Lord is truly denying the fact that He really is Lord; it doesn’t matter if one thinks so or not.

Jesus is Lord no matter what, if one repents or not.
However, Jesus may not be savior to the ones who refuse to let him save them.

Quote:
* If a person believes, but they do not repent of their sins, are they saved?
* Does mere belief save, without repentance?
* Does a person need to repent of their sins, or change their mind about breaking the moral law, in order to be pardoned?
* Why would a Ruler pardon a criminal who still plans on committing crimes?

When you understand obedience towards God in contrast to obedience towards the "Torah" or the Law, you will see that our obedience towards God is by the spirit of the law and not the letter.

The letter is made of 613 separate commands from the Torah. This is compared to only 1 command of the Spirit, which is love.

The difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law is that the letter relates to the outward action; the spirit relates to the motive or intention of the heart and from which the act should proceed.

The spirit of the law requires impartial goodwill &/or benevolence, and is all expressed in one word--love. The letter of the law requires strict adherence to every precept, it is all expressed in one word--obey.

When you understand this, you will see why they call it the "Law of Liberty"!

An example, the letter of the law says, "Do not commit murder!" but the spirit of the law says, ‘‘anyone who is angry with his brother without cause shall be liable to Judgment.'' (Matthew 5:21-22)
The spirit requires that certain conditions to be examined in their proper place.

The letter of the law is unyielding and sentences “guilty” all violators of its precepts, without regard to the purpose of the violation. Just as the speed limit is 55 mph and one exceeds the limit, the law says, ''guilty''.

The spirit of the law, on the other hand, sees the purpose of the excess speed for an emergency and says, ''keep speeding until purpose is met".
Furthermore, when speeding for the purpose of an emergency, the spirit of the law is not broken, but fulfilled.

How is repentance different than obeying the letter of the Law?
When one repents, they are not turning from sin and towards the law, but very act of repentance is turning away from sin and toward God, and in faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Act 20:21

 2009/8/14 22:56Profile









 Re:

Maybe we should ask this question: What was YOUR conversion experience like? What was your testimony? Did it include repentance?

I know that I believed in Jesus Christ long before I was converted. I believed in Jesus, I believed in the Bible, yet I was living in terrible terrible sin. But when I was converted to Christ, I repented of my sins. I was not saved when I merely believed in Jesus. I was saved when I believed He died for my sins AND forsake my sins.

To be more specific I used to do a lot of drugs and was sexually immoral with women. I also was a liar and a thief. I robbed houses to support my drug habit and even was involved in check frauds. During this time I went to Church, believed in Jesus, and believed the Bible was the Word of God. But I was not saved, I was going to hell. It was not until I repented of my sins that I had the assurance from the Spirit and of my conscience that my sins were forgiven by God.

I am convinced that [i]if I continued on[/i] in my drug abusing, sexual immorality, lying and stealing, I would have gone to hell even though I believed in Jesus Christ. Am I wrong in this belief? Was I saved while I was doing these things? Did I "fall from grace" because I repented of my sins?

Was I saved when I merely believed, but did I lose my salvation when I repented? The way some people talk negatively about repentance, as if it is justification by works of the law, you would think that I was saved when I was sinning because I believed, but I lost my salvation when I repented! The truth is that I was hell bound when I merely believed yet continued on in my sins. I was not forgiven by God until trusted in Christ AND gave up my sins.

 2009/8/14 23:31
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
truefaithsav wrote:

I was not saved when I merely believed in Jesus.

In other words:
[b]James 2:19[/b] [color=990000]You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble![/color]

Quote:
The way some people talk negatively about repentance, as if it is justification by works of the law, you would think that I was saved when I was sinning because I believed, but I lost my salvation when I repented!



[b]Mat 3:8[/b] [color=990000] Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,[/color]
Repentance is the fruit of faith.

Faith is the first & primary step.
Repentance/conversion stems from faith; it is a fruit from or of faith. Faith without this primary work of repentance is dead.

If one does not repent, he is proving that he really has no faith at all!

 2009/8/15 0:15Profile
imnowhere
Member



Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69


 Re:

In Romans 1:17, Paul says that the gospel contains the 'righteousness of God', which is the 'power of God unto salvation'.

Then, once all the gentiles, religious, and Jews are indicted of their guilt in chptrs 2 and 3, Paul again comes back to the cross, where again Paul points to the righteousness of God as our saving hope.

The gospel is about the righteousness of God. Not man. Paul does encourage us in our sanctification, but not till chptr 12 once the doctrine of the gospel of God's righteousness is complete.

What makes saving faith different from counterfeit faith is that saving faith is in Christ and not in one's self.

Eph 2:10 follows verses 8 and 9. Not the other way around. It's always a part of salvation, but doesn't procure it. It is of grace.

1 Cor 4:7




 2009/8/15 1:04Profile









 Re:

Quote:
If one does not repent, he is proving that he really has no faith at all!



Yes it says that Nineveh "believed God" and then they turned "every one from his evil way".

It was only after Nineveh believed God and repented of their sins that "God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

This is how God saves Gentiles. God repents of their punishment when they repent of their sins. God turns from His anger when they turn from their evil ways.


 2009/8/15 1:25





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