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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Romans 6, 7 & 8

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Gideons
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Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 474
Virginia

 Re:

Very interesting discussion. I've been praying and pondering about this in my own life.

Brother Robert you said

Quote:
I know that we ought to make a distinction between belief and faith- but I felt there was a connection between these points that we could explore further- because, "without faith it is impossible to please Him." Could the root of a lack of holiness and victory be traced back to good old fashioned unbelief?



To believe God means not only to trust Him but to obey Him. I don't have access to the Greek words, but the Greek words (pistos? I'm far from a Greek scholar) denote both things. Remember the old hymn "Trust and obey, for there's no other way, to be happy in Jesus but to trust and obey." The two things go together.

With unbelief, the same issues are wrapped around each other as well. So unbelief would be a lack of trust and disobedience.

The question I've been raising to myself is whether I actually trust his words to be true. If I don't trust them, why would I obey them? Unbelief means that we trust Satan more than we trust God and that's why it's such a grievous sin.

The other question if it's an area of sin "Is do love my sin and want to stay in it?."

I think many think that "believing God" is simply a mental assent but that's clearly short of what the scriptures articulate.

There's a great series by Beth Moore entitled "Believing God" that you may find useful. It reaffirmed many of the things the Holy Spirit had been showing in my own life.


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Ed Pugh

 2004/9/13 14:10Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Quote:
I know that we ought to make a distinction between belief and faith


Hi Robert
What does this mean?

The KJV only uses the word 'belief' once; But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: (2Th 2:13 KJV)

but this is just the word πίστις (pistis) - faith.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/14 6:08Profile
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Joined: 2004/2/12
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 Re:

Quote:
What does this mean?



Hi Bro. Ron,

I was referring to the rendering in James 2:19 (Pisteuo?). I don't know that the tense matters so much,- just the passage that makes a distinction between a dead carcass and a living one. So also, faith that is without 'works' is dead. I used the term 'belief' loosely to designate the faith that does not believe unto obedience. Assent of the mind, superficial agreement with basic facts, etc.; as opposed to saving faith that saves unto obedience to the faith (good works). The devils 'believe' (pisteuo) but are in a state of rebellion. This was also true of many of the Pharisee's- they 'believed' but they were resisting the Holy Ghost at the same time. They read the Law, made proselytes after their own kind, tithed mint and cummin, etc., but they always resisted the Holy Ghost. Therefor they did not seek to attain righteousness by genuine 'faith' because that would have required wilfull submission to the Holy Ghost and they would not submit willingly- like the devils. Agreement with facts in the context of resistance to the Holy Ghost = unbelief.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/14 9:01Profile
philologos
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 Re:

On a couple of occasions Paul refers to 'faith unfeigned'. LIterally, faith without hypocrisy. Hypocrite is the Greek for actor. This is faith without pretence; the genuine article.
When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. (2Ti 1:5 KJV)

The only reason Paul would have to qualify what kind of faith he was talking about is because there is another kind; fake faith or perhaps 'dead' faith.

I think 'unbelief' has a slightly different connotation. It has the sense of defiance. It is refusal to believe rather than inability or mere mental assent. Nevertheless, I see what you are saying now. I had just not appreciated the kind of distiction you were making in the words 'faith' and 'belief'.

James might almost have called your 'belief' dead faith. There is a kind of acknowledgment of truth which is utterly without life; it is without life giving spirit. It is not really faith, it is faith's corpse.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/14 10:15Profile
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 Re:

I understand the reason for making the distinction between "faith" and "belief", although I prefer explicitly calling the latter "mere mental assent," because it can easily cause confusion, in my opinion.

On another note, what does the father mean when he says,"Lord, I believe; help thou mine [b]unbelief[/b]" (Mark 9:24)? Is a sense of defiance also intended here?

(Philologos, I have some outstanding questions in the thread, "correct applications", just in case you have missed them).


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Sam

 2004/9/14 10:58Profile
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 Re:

Brother Ron quoted:

Quote:
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: (2Th 2:13 KJV)



I look at this Scripture in the same way as Paul told the Corinthians that they had been given all things in Christ Jesus. For those who actually experience salvation through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, these will know the faithfulness of God. Not merely that He exists, but that His work in us is to prepare us to glorify His name. This is His plan.

I look at the book of 1 John as a self examination test. Do we who profess Christ, have the mind of Christ? I am not talking about knowing that the promise is available, a free gift. I am talking about realizing the promises through our walk with our Savior.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/9/14 12:31Profile
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 Re:

Brother Ron quoted:

Quote:
When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. (2Ti 1:5 KJV)



In another place Paul writes of Timothy, "For I have no one like-minded, who will sincerely care for your state. For all seek their own, not the things which are of Christ Jesus." Philippians 2:20-21

I believe Paul is talking about Timothy's spiritual maturity. Imagine, Paul says that He has no one else who is like minded. No one else who ministers because he love Jesus more than anything else in his life. We know that those who traveled with Paul were committed. Yet there is still remaining some [b]hypocrisy[/b] in their lives. I look at hypocritical faith as something that combines our desires for both worldly infatuations, self serving motivation with our heavenly instilled desires.

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10

Before we can glorify His name, He must prepare us, He must refine us, He must equip us beforehand. It is we who work according to our carnal ways who minister from a hypocritical faith. It is our unbelief that God can fill us with everything that could ever satisfy us. That is why we still live to be self-sufficient.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/9/14 12:45Profile
Gideons
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 Re: Romans 7 for believers or unbelievers??

I used to think that Romans 7 applied to believers but the more I've been meditating and praying on this chapter the more I believe it relates to unbelievers.

How can one be born again if he/she hasn't died? I'm struggling to understanding this chapter and realize that many commentators would suggest that this came after Paul's conversion.


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Ed Pugh

 2004/10/3 20:25Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I used to think that Romans 7 applied to believers but the more I've been meditating and praying on this chapter the more I believe it relates to unbelievers.

I think one of the clues in Romans 7 is that it is 'without the Spirit'. ie there is no reference to the indwelling Spirit which according to Romans 8 is the defining feature of 'those who are Christ's'; But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Rom 8:9 KJV)

Note that this does not actually say what most evangelicals want it to say. This does not say that all Christian's have the Spirit; it says that all who do not have the Spirit are not His. The mathematicians on this site might help us with the 'logic' of this statement. At the point of direct revelation it currently states...
not having the Spirit = not His
I am cautious about the 'logic' of taking it much farther...

The definition of 'His' is stated in terms of 'having (or not having) the Spirit. We usually define 'His' by 'decision', 'believing', etc. Paul clearly defines 'His' in terms of 'having the Spirit'.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/10/4 5:35Profile
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Joined: 2003/9/26
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Cape Town - South Africa

 Re:

Quote:
I used to think that Romans 7 applied to believers but the more I've been meditating and praying on this chapter the more I believe it relates to unbelievers



This is exactly how I felt all my life and I comforted myself with the idea, that even Paul wrote about a state where it is not he who sins, but the sin which is within him. But This June the Lord did a very big work in my heart and showed me while I was studieng the book of ROmans, that I lived in sin and was sold unto sin. That it was the sin in me doing the things yes, but that showed me even more in what a state I was.
This is what the Lord showed me and I dont want to argue about it, but that is who I was also. I wanted to do the good but did the bad. Now God showed me that if there is sin in my life which I dont lay off and stop with, I cannot enter his Kingdom. I was lost with all my good doing praying and bible reading! God used all this to bring me back to Him, as I once was HIs but terribly backslided. NOw was I His as a backslidden? I believe so, but I had to come back to Him to be in His house and presence again as the son went back to the father.

This is written in short and might sound confusing, but I dont have more time to write all I want. It is trust and obedience.

In Christ
Janus


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Johannes Jacobs

 2004/10/4 6:30Profile





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