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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
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Independence, Missouri

 Romans 6, 7 & 8

I would like to begin a discussion of Romans 6, 7 & 8 and related passages in order to develop a better understanding of what it truly means to be dead to sin. I believe that these three chapters hold a great portion of the key.

Shall we begin with Romans 8:1-3

1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (AV)

2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


8:1) Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (NASB)


In Romans 7-9 Paul is teaching us that Old Testament laws are good, holy, and Spiritual- but apart from Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we are carnal and sold under sin. When we are in Christ we have died to the 'law of sin.'

When we speak of the 'law of sin' we are not saying that the law of Moses was sin. It is to say that when a commandment comes apart from the fulness of the Holy Spirit rebellion rises up and that law that was intended to be of life becomes death to us because it arouses all manor of concupiscence. This is because sin is somehow resident and remains dormant until a commandment comes. As Paul said, "When the commandment came sin REVIVED and I died." That indicates that the law by itself could never take away sin.

The letter killeth. Yet when the same person is in Christ and full of the Spirit, God's commandments are not grievous and a delight in them manifests in the inward man. To switch metaphors for a moment- the Commandment becomes a source of fulfillment- in that, "Our meat is to do the will of Him that sent us."

When we are in the 'flesh' and devoid of the spirit of God that same commandment will serve as an opportunity for the Carnal man to rebel and 'fulfill' the lusts of the flesh. The flesh (carnal man) is 'fed' or 'fullfilled' by DISOBEDIENCE to God. The Spirit filled man is fulfilled by obedience. The carnal man will grow in strength in their wickedness as they remain devoid of the Spirit of God and rebel against the commandments. The Spiritual man grows up and is built up in Christ as they remain full of the Spirit and haply accept the commandments of Christ and do them.

We have become dead to the law by the body of Jesus Christ. It is staggering to think of all that took place at the Cross. We died to sin with Christ if we are in Him. We also died to the law of commandments contained in ordinances. In dying to the law we remove the catalyst that causes sin to revive in us. Yet, we are not lawless by any means because we are to be FULL of the Holy Ghost and walking in the commandments of Christ.

This is where things get tricky. If we cease to be FULL of the Holy Ghost it seems that a void is created in us that must be filled with something. If we fill that void with earthly things we do not have the fulness of the Holy Ghost to keep all of this (Romans 7-9) working. When the fulness ceases- victory over sin is impossible. We shift into a carnal mode and when the commandment comes sin revives and we die. Where once we delighted in the laws of God we are now tempted to sin by the same laws. Why? It seems that in the absence of the fulness of the Holy Ghost the law has the effect of death- but when we are living in fulness the commandments bring sustanence.

Good Place to Start,

Any Thoughts?

God Bless,

-Robert



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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/10 8:40Profile
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 Re: Romans 6, 7 & 8

Quote:
Any Thoughts?


Just a few.:-?
Have you got a good Kevlar helmit? ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/10 9:02Profile
RobertW
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 Re:

Yes, it's the helmet of salvation. :-)

What's your take on all this brother Ron? I am trying to come to an understanding of these things desperately- I feel like I'm getting closer all the time. My main point of thinking that is different than what I have seen in the past is the necessity of maintaining a continuous state of fulness of the Holy Ghost in order to live out the Christian life in the fulness of all God intended. When we start to 'empty out' (metaphorically) the things of this world come in and the whole dynamic changes.

Ezekiel 36:23 - 28

I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the Gentiles, which you have profaned in the midst of them: that the Gentiles may know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord of hosts, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the Gentiles, and will gather you together out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land. And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols. And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit in the midst of you:[b][size=x-small]and I will cause you to walk in my commandments,[/size][/b], and to keep my judgments, and do them. And you shall dwell in the land which I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.


Let er' rip!


God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/10 9:54Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Let er' rip!


Here we go...
I think your starting point is right but I am not sure about your finishing point. I sometimes see Romans 6 and 7 as illustrations of the truth that Paul established in the latter part of Romans 5. If you read straight from the end of Rom 5 to the beginning of Rom 8 it actually hangs together quite well, and the ancients of course did not have the tool of the parenthesis; For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord... There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (Rom 5:19-21 KJV)(Rom 8:1-3 KJV) I think the whole of 6 and 7 could be regarded as a parenthesis.

Rom 6:3 has Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Rom 6:3-6 KJV) Youngs Literal shows that the definite article should be before the word baptism; we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk. (Rom 6:4 YLT) Now I don't think that 'the baptism' which is a baptism into Christ's death is water baptism. There are other indications too. This is not baptism in the name of Jesus, the usual Acts designation, but baptism into Christ Jesus Himself. A Niagara of water could not achieve this.

The phrase is echoed in Colossians; in whom also ye were circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh in the circumcision of the Christ, being buried with him in the baptism, in which also ye rose with him through the faith of the working of God, who did raise him out of the dead. (Col 2:11-12 YLT). Again it is 'the baptism'. This time it is even more clear that water baptism is not in mind. If we follow the flow of the ideas water baptism is not generally followed by burial.

I think the key to the next chapter is the kind of person that Paul is talking about. He is talking about ... so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (Rom 6:3 KJV) Following through into the remainder of Rom 6 it is only these who have had their 'old man co-crucified with him' and later only these who can 'reckon themselves dead indeed'. We are not talking evangelical positional theology here but experiential reality.




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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/10 10:52Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Rom 6:3 has Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.



Great! Lets keep going. So we see then that we are dead to the old man experientially and in a real way. We are dead to the devil, dead to sin, dead to the world, dead to the flesh. And in that death we are now free to be married to Christ and the New Covenant and all that comes with that.

The point I am trying to come to terms with is an experiential reality of still having to deal with sin and temptation at certain times. Ezekiel 36 (I think) says, "I will put my Spirit in them and cause them to walk in my commandments..." Does it stand to reason that Paul was saying "Be ye filled with the Spirit" because that fulness is necessary to walk in the Spirit. When we cease to actively be filled with the Spirit we hinder our ability to truly walk in the Spirit?

God Bless!

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/10 11:16Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Great! Lets keep going. So we see then that we are dead to the old man experientially and in a real way. We are dead to the devil, dead to sin, dead to the world, dead to the flesh. And in that death we are now free to be married to Christ and the New Covenant and all that comes with that.

I think these stages are identifiable but not necessarily separable. 'the baptism' is into a Christ who in His experience has already passed through death to sin, resurrection and being seated in heavenly places. The Spirit that flowed from the throne has, please excuse the crude analogy, all the flavours through which Christ has passed. We do not need a list of separate experiences but we do need to be marinaded in that Spirit.



Quote:
Does it stand to reason that Paul was saying "Be ye filled with the Spirit" because that fulness is necessary to walk in the Spirit. When we cease to actively be filled with the Spirit we hinder our ability to truly walk in the Spirit?

Even the 'new man' needs constant renewal; and have put on the new man, that is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of him that created him: (Col 3:10 ASV)

Here's an illustration from the world of computers. (Experts please correct the illustration if necessary.) A monitor works by having a chemical coating which retains the image projected upon it. The coating only retains the image for a short while. Monitors have 'refresh rates'; the higher the rate the more rock steady the image. This is because the image is not 'maintained' but 'refreshed' and hence moving pictures etc etc. The image of the new man requires continues refreshing in full knowledge according to the image of Him that created him. Where does the light go when you blow out the candle? Light is a process, so is life. Christ's life in us is not just a single event but a process which can only be kept 'fresh' by the continuing flow of the Spirit; for I know that this shall turn out for me to salvation, through your supplication and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ; (Phi 1:19 Darby) this 'supply' is literally a 'further supply'.

How we doin' so far?


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/10 11:37Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
The Spirit that flowed from the throne has, please excuse the crude analogy, all the flavours through which Christ has passed. We do not need a list of separate experiences but we do need to be marinaded in that Spirit.



Sorry, I meant to state that all those things happened at a definite moment together and not individually.

Quote:
Where does the light go when you blow out the candle? Light is a process, so is life. Christ's life in us is not just a single event but a process which can only be kept 'fresh' by the continuing flow of the Spirit; for I know that this shall turn out for me to salvation, through your supplication and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ; (Phi 1:19 Darby) this 'supply' is literally a 'further supply'.



This is a good analogy! We are being transformed into His image from day to day by the Spirit of God. The question for me is- what happens when the computer gets tired of refreshing itself? What happens when a person does not actively seek to be filled with the Spirit by the various means (prayer, the word, psalms and hymns, spiritual songs, etc.)? Does it become a situation kind of like my computer at work- the power drops and my battery back up kicks in to keep the whole thing from shutting down. I hear a click and a flicker of the screen- but everythings stays up. the battery back up must be God's grace and Him allowing us a space to repent of not being continuoisy filled?


Quote:
How we doin' so far?



Good! no bumps on my head and I think we getting somewhere! Lets keep looking at it! :-)

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/10 11:57Profile
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 Re:

Brother Robert wrote:

Quote:
Great! Lets keep going. So we see then that we are dead to the old man experientially and in a real way. We are dead to the devil, dead to sin, dead to the world, dead to the flesh. And in that death we are now free to be married to Christ and the New Covenant and all that comes with that.



I look at it a little different. Paul writes to the Corinthians, " I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you [b]by Christ Jesus.[/b], that you were [b]enriched in everything by Him in all utterances and all knowledge.[/b] even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed [b]in you.[/b] so that you [b]come short in no gift[/b] eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Corinthians 1:4-7

Here Paul teaches that when one enters into a relationship with Christ one has access to all that Christ has to offer. Yet what does Paul say in chapter 3:1? "And I [b]brethren,[/b], could not speak to you as to [b]spiritual people[/b] but as to [b]carnal[/b], as to babes in Christ." Paul states that they are unable to understand spiritual matters. The Corinthians have no sought hard after God. In 2 Corinthians 6:11-18, Paul gives his diagnosis of the Corinthians problem. vs 12, "You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by b]your own affections.[/b]" Paul is pointing to their following of the carnal ways. What solution does he give them? He quotes from the OT, "Come out from among them and be seperate, says the Lord."

John teaches us about the believer's spiritual condition. "I write to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake. I write to you fathers, because you have known HIM who is from the beginning, I write to you, young men, because you have overcome the wicked one." 1 John 2:12-13

Here John makes a distinction between levels of spiritual maturity. First, the children are forgiven their sins. This is the state of the Corinthians when Paul labels them "babes in Christ." Secondly, John identifies the young men as those who have overcome the wicked one. Later in verse 14, John gives us an additional insight as to how these young men overcome the wicked one. "...because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you." And thirdly, John identifies the mature in Christ by saying that the fathers have known Him who is from the beginning."

While some may say that the children will persevere in the faith because of Christ's death, Paul teaches that only those who choose to obey the commands of the Spirit will overcome the carnality that still threatens the walk of a babe in Christ. See Romans 8:13

We are given access into all grace that is given to us in Christ Jesus. The hope is alive as long as we obey. The just shall live by faith. Our paths defines the evidence of what we hope in. Is it the world, or do we seek to come near to Him who will give us HIS LIFE. It is only HIS LIFE that can save.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/9/13 11:54Profile
RobertW
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 Re:

Quote:
Our paths defines the evidence of what we hope in.



Thanks for the additional insight Bro. Jeff. It kind of goes along with something I was thinking last week about when Christ said, "yet when He returns will He find FAITH in the earth?" The strength of their faith in God seems, at least in most cases, to determine how close to God a person lives. If they are weak in faith they will not take Christ seriously. I know that we ought to make a distinction between belief and faith- but I felt there was a connection between these points that we could explore further- because, "without faith it is impossible to please Him." Could the root of a lack of holiness and victory be traced back to good old fashioned unbelief?

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/13 13:18Profile
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 Re:

Faith comes by hearing the word of God. As John pointed out, young men become strong in the word of God. It is the word that fills our heart which will change our desires in this life. Do we choose to hear the word, or do we choose another day living for the things of this world. Where is our treasure? As you pointed out Robert, it is unbelief in the promises that God gives us in His word. It is unbelief that the Spirit of God strives against. Salvation is everyday. Do we want to be near so that we can hear? Or do we shrink back. Each of us must count the cost. We stumble, and sometimes become the prodigal son. Yet for those who remember the goodness of our Lord and return, He is faithful to convince us of His ways. Paul was convinced, can we say the same?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/9/13 13:58Profile





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