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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Deception, help..

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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Again contemplative prayer can mean different things. There is nothing wrong with contemplating God. If it is done is some false way then sure. But what is wrong. Is it having a blank mind? Well, sometimes I will clear my mind from all distractions and other thoughts. But again there is a difference between this and serious extremism mixed with falseism and a distinction should be made and not mix the former up with that latter and so be overly paranoid thinking because we are in the last days that everything is of the devil and people speaking in tongues are of the devil ect things like that.

 2009/8/10 2:36Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

I speak in tounges, I was filled with the spirit before ever going to church, the first thing that happened was that a wind left me, the second a wind blew into my stomach after that I sat up up and spoke in a new language as I ask the question what is this a thought came to me "this is tounges" all this came out of a simple prayer God change me as I am fed up being this way.

I was not looking for a spiritual experince all that I wanted was help to change me from being a violent wicked man and God heard me and answered my prayer.

So as you can see from the very out set of my christian life I have experienced spiritual things.

Know last year aman came to my nation I forget his name but he was attached to Fresh Fire ministries, he came with a vision that God was going to move in this nation of mine.

So off I went to listen to him, at the start of the meeting all these poeple came up testifying of the vision they have been seeing of angels. The preacher came up and started to preach and promote and share testimony that we should be asking God to see these things. He also promoted soaking prayer as the door way to this.

Now half way into the meeting I discerned a precence in the church and I started to pray in tounges softly as I was very concerned, as I look at the preacher he started to lose what he was trying to say, he kept on stuttering the whole congregation started to laugh as he tried to get the words out. Then all of a sudden he said my Angel is standing at the back of the church he is angry with he wants me to talk about angels and tell you that you must seek to experince anglelic visions.

That was enough proof for me that this ministry or any ministry that promotes prayer soaking in any shape or form is decieved and are decieving others.

Jesus sais to us "See to it that no one decieves you it for many will come in my name" The strongest attack against you as a Christain is deception becasue Satan will come as a Angel of light and his ministers will come as ministers of light..........

This if you have eyes to see it is what is happening in the church today and many are falling away with doctrines of devils.

Christains be careful and be on guard as the devil is seeking to devour you.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2009/8/10 5:17Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3385
East TN (for now)

 Re: Deception, help..

Poet,

I don't know who said it in another thread but before he died Leonard Ravenhill told this person to, "[b][i]Test everything.[/i][/b]" [I didn't say anything to this person, but this spoke to my spirit and I heard a hearty "Amen" inside of me and I'm doing my own study on "test," etc!! So thank you, who ever wrote it!]

I don't know that all forms of contemplative prayer are of the devil but the description murrcolr gave sounded like it sure ended up that way with that preacher. Personally, I have a problem calling prayer anything but what it is... prayer!! :-(

It's like the 'c'hurch is trying to disguise it to get people to want to do it again! Maybe this is where the enemy is slipping in because they won't receive the love of the truth of "true" prayer, so God has sent them a strong delusion that they would believe a lie. I don't really know, I'm just wondering.

There definitely is a problem somewhere with prayer and church; and these two things being done together!! My friends and I started a prayer group and when I tell some about it, I've never had stranger looks given to me and these are from people who go to church.

The lines are being drawn and my heart's desire is to be on God's side when it all goes down; so we definitely do not need to go with [b]our own understanding[/b] of even the Scriptures but ...

"[b][i]Test everything.[/i][/b]"

[edit] - I mean that we need to even test [b]our understanding[/b] of what we believe the Scriptures say; therefore testing [b]our belief[/b]. Philippians 3.8


_________________
Lisa

 2009/8/10 10:22Profile









 Re: Deception, help..


Hi murrcolr,

Thanks for the verse. It didn't occur to me it might be in the NEW Testament!

:-o

 2009/8/10 10:36









 Re: Deception, help..

To poet;

Roger Oakland has a great article on contemplatice prayer that you should give to your Pastor:

[url=http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c33.shtml]Contemplative Prayer or Terror? Roger Oakland[/url]

Lighthous Trails has a great response to Contemplative Mysticism and Spiritual Formation that you can provide him with as well:

[url=http://www.lighthousetrails.com/]Contemplative Mysticism & Spiritual Formation[/url]

Sincerly,

Walter

Quote:

poet wrote:
My pastor and I have a disagreement going on...
could someone help me out on this one...

I believe that when someone practices Contemplative prayer, bringing their mind to an altered state of consciousness to hear in the spirit realm, which I believe to be the demonic realm, My pastor believes it is the Godly realm.....
He says as long as were believers God will protect us from deceiving spirits.
I believe that when we do something that the word of God forbids that there is no protection.
He doesn't think it's forbidden so it's not sin and were not subject to deception, I believe even if we do something in ignorance we can be deceived, unless we have been given grace to open our eyes to the deception and then repent....
What say anybody... Scriptures would help...
I want to try and convince him he's in error.
Unless im in error.... Let's not get into the whole stumbling block vain... which would obviously tip the scales in my favor.. but for a frontal attack against deception id like to confront this and settle it once and for all.
Thanks.[/quote

 2009/8/10 12:47
elected
Member



Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Re:

There is nothing wrong with contemplative prayer as long as you are led by the Holy Spirit, this has been an early tradition of christians. As far as i can spiritualy discern this form of prayer is being abused and has become an end to itself and not a means to reach God by faith.

We are living in a postmodern culture where some famous and successful christian leaders like Rick Warren and Leonard Sweet are leading the church to 'new kind of spirituality'. The deception of today is spirituality without Christ.This is not true christian mystism but new age, moder pagan or eastern mystism masquarding as chrsitian spirituality.

Satan is a great deceiver in every age he will invent schemes to lead people away from the truth of God. In the 19th century the church was devastated by liberal theology and higher criticism of the bilbe as a result most of the mainline denominations embraced the ungodly theology of liberals who striped the bible of all its miracles and divinity of Jesus. The result of modern liberal theology was a Jesus who was totaly human and just an Example to be followed. Liberal theology was the fruit of the age of reason and enlightment philosophy. Today the social gosple that liberal theologians preach is not attracting big crowds.


Its a bid section of evangelical movement of today with its 'new kind of spirituality and misticism' that is leading many astray to spiritual deception. Our greatest ennimies to be feared are not those from outside but those from inside the church who pretend to be ministers of Christ.

Welcome to 21st century, welcome to the new age and the greatest deception in the history of the church.The form of godliness and prayer is obvious everywhere but its power is denied in many evangelical circles.

Im sorry if i departed from the subject but we should be not be ignorant of the wiles and schemes of the devil. This new storm of deception and counterfeit spirituality is increasing in power and devestating many.This immerging of new morality, new mentality and new spirituality stands in denial of the power of the cross and pentecost.





_________________
Redi

 2009/8/10 13:22Profile









 Re: Contemplative Gnostocism



To elected:

Contemplative prayer is part of Roman Catholocism, and has nothing to do with Christianity. What is Roman Catholocism all about? Praying to Mary, part of the creation, rather than to the Creator. Praying to dead saints, part of creation, rather than to the Creator. Praying to a wafer, as part of the Eucharist, that Catholics believe is actually Jesus Christ. Confessing their sins to a Catholic Priest, instead of confessing them directly to Jesus Christ, and repenting of their sin, and turning back to Christ, as the Bible commands us to do.

Roman Catholocism worhsips the Pope, who has usurped all authority from Jesus Christ and His Scripture, the Bible (both the Old Testament & the New Testament). Scripture is meaningless for Roman Catholics. The reason is that all of the various Roman Catholic Councils, including the Ecumenical Church Councils which have usurped the written authority of God's Word, of God's requirements. The decisions of these councils supersedes Scripture, found in God’s Word, the Bible for all people that are under the boot of Roman Catholicism.

[color=990000][b]GNOSTICISM, CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER & OTHER CHRISTIAN TRADITIONS[/color][/b]


By Marsha West
March 30, 2007
NewsWithViews.com

Christians are being exhorted to put their minds on hold through meditation and take a step into the supernatural realm. Is it biblical to connect with the supernatural realm? In an interview with Emergent leader Rob Bell, founding pastor of Mars Hill in Grand Rapids, MI, he made the following comment: "Central to the Christian tradition, for thousands of years, have been disciplines of meditation, reflection, silence, and breathing. It was understood that to be a healthy person, to be fully connected with God, and fully centered you would spend significant parts of your day in silence–breathing, meditating–praying allowing the Spirit of God to transform you and touch you." So ordinary people spent significant parts of their day in silence, meditating?

Even if it were true, nowhere in the Bible are God's people encouraged to stop using their minds and to connect with the supernatural world. Believers are to worship God with their heart, strength, mind and soul. In an altered state of consciousness the mind is not engaged, it's blank!

[color=990000]For over two thousand years (not "thousands of years") Christians have followed a whole host of unbiblical practices that God regards evil. But that hasn't stopped untold numbers from participating. Example: Even though God forbids fortune telling (divination) countless people, including Christians, have visited mediums to "look into the future."

For more than five thousand years meditation has been practiced by Eastern religions and has become mainstream in Western culture. It is true, as Bell says, that Christians have been practicing meditation for centuries. Christian meditation came about when monks began reading the Bible slowly. As they read, they would ponder the deeper meaning of each verse. This is called "divine reading" or lectio divina. As a result of their Scripture meditation the monks found themselves spontaneously praying. Their prayer would move them to a wordless focus on God. They called this "wordless love for God" CONTEMPLATIONS. More on contemplative prayer in a moment.

[b]Lacking a biblical worldview and an understanding of Scripture is the main reason Christians are dipping into the forbidden waters of Eastern meditation to "know the unknowable."

Contemporary Christianity is following "every wind of doctrine." Believers are listening to what their "itching ears want to hear." Regrettably, their itching ears are tuned to neo-gnostic heresy. One of the obstacles the Apostles faced were false teachers, the Gnostics being the most prevalent of the bunch. Gnosticism was condemned as a heresy in the first century church.

Here's the crux of Gnosticism:
"Christian Gnosticism is the belief that one must have a "gnosis" (from Greek "Gnosko," to know) or inner knowledge which is mystical knowledge obtained only after one has been properly initiated. Only a few can possess this mystical knowledge, limiting the number of those "in the know". … Gnosticism today seems to provide a lot of the form and color for the New Age portrait of Jesus where Jesus is seen as the illumined Illuminator: one who serves as a cosmic catalyst for others' awakening. As such it is as false and heretical as the Gnosticism of the first century and needs to be roundly condemned for the heresy that it is."[1] [/b]

Most of us think it's cool to have inside information. Makes one feel important. Even special. Who wouldn't want to cultivate a special experience with God that no one else has?
Sadly, Christians involve themselves in New Age practices like yoga meditation so they'll "be in the know."

You say, "My church isn't into any of that New Age stuff." No, but you'll read about the New Age stuff in books purchased in your local or online Christian bookstores. You'll also see an abundance of false teaching on Christian blogs all over the Internet.

Or you'll hear name it and claim it prosperity preachers on TV acting as if the Almighty is actually whispering into their ear as they impart their false teaching to millions of viewers.
You can't even escape Gnostic heresy in modern Christian music. You could be singing it in church! Listen to the lyrics of so-called worship songs and be amazed! And be sickened.

Last, but not least, the Oprah Winfrey Show if rife with Gnosticism. Those who tune into Oprah's program (a number of gullible Christians do) will hear her guests share their esoteric mystical experiences.

It's all about experience. "The Gnostics thought that one must directly experience the spirit to learn the truth, this being apart from the word. Stepping over into the supernatural, experience becomes the teacher and gives them real knowledge. What was and is now being taught is spirit to spirit communication that is completely outside the Biblical revelation given by the apostles."[2]

This fits liberal "Christianity" to a tee. The Word of God is out of date so experience becomes the teacher. In his essay "What are we talking about?" DA Carson points out that some leaders in the Emergent Church movement claim "changing times demand that fresh questions be asked of Scripture, and then fresh answers will be heard. What was an appropriate use of Scripture under modernism is no longer an appropriate use of Scripture under postmodernism." This is a classic case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

But I digress.

The "knower" believes that the masses are not in possession of spiritual knowledge, and only the truly "enlightened" can experience God. Thus the reintroduction of contemplative, aka centering, prayer into the Church.
How is centering prayer different from biblical prayer? Centering prayer is a meditative practice where the focus is on having a mystical experience with God. Individuals choose a sacred word or symbol (such as God, Jesus, Father) and repeat it over and over during the twenty-minute exercise. Sitting comfortably in a meditative posture, with back straight and eyes closed, the sacred word is introduced as the symbol of consent to God's presence within. Should outside thoughts emerge in your mind, you must return "ever-so-gently" to your sacred word. At the end of your prayer time you're to remain in silence with eyes closed for a few minutes.
Sounds like a good way to relax, doesn't it? Trouble is, contemplative prayer has no Scriptural support whatsoever. Moreover, it's the exact opposite of how the Bible instructs believers to pray.
Read the prayer of Jesus in Luke 11:1-4 below.[3]
[b]"In that day you will no longer ask me anything," said Jesus to the apostles. "I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete" (John 16:23-24). [/b]

Paul says, " Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God." (Philippians 4:6).; " Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God." (Col. 4:12).

Biblical prayer advocates engaging your mind, even wrestling in your mind, as did Epaphras, not emptying your mind! Yet Pastor Rob Bell encourages Zachary Lind to do just that. Following is a snip of an interview Lind did with Bell. (For clarity I edited out phrases like "like," "you know" and "I mean."):
Interviewer Lind: … the book you recommended to me a few weeks ago [by] Richard Rohrr…talked about contemplative prayer … [I read] half of the book and still don't really know what his definition of that is. But he starts getting into it. And he says … you have to at least sit … past 20 minutes.
Bell: Yeah, yes.
Lind: It takes a certain amount of time before your sort of selfish things get aired out. Like you might be all about you for 20 minutes, but then after that it's like, you're kind of a blank slate. You know…
Bell: Uh-huh.
Lind: You're kind of ready to intake anything. He talks a lot in that book about a beginners mind and … being kind of like a child and coming up to Jesus, and really just ready to be written on. And … maybe I'm wrong but I kind of feel like from what I hear … there's a lot of that going on …
Bell: Yeah, well you have to essentially discipline your life around forming the depths, and that takes just phenomenal discipline that I don't even pretend to have.[4]
At this point the conversation drifts away from contemplative prayer. Bell gave no warning with regard to the dangers of meditation even though Lind admits that he's ready to take anything, "Ready to be written on." Written on by whom? The Bible warns of deceiving spirits! "The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved" (2 Thess. 2:9-10).
After listening to the interview what you will come away with is that Rob Bell is leading Christians into dangerous Eastern religious beliefs and rituals. Convinced they're having an esoteric experience with "God," many Christians are actually embracing Hinduism.

[b]Biblical prayer is comprehendible communication with God. Prayer is not an esoteric, yoga meditation. Granted, many contemplatives are ignorant of the true nature of meditation—but such ignorance is inexcusable and indefensible! The truth about the dangers of meditation is readily available in books and on the Internet. Contemplative spirituality, like Gnosticism, promotes pursuing a magical mystical experience with "God."

Overlooked are passages such as Joshua 1:8: "This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success." This command is from God! He wants His people to meditate on Scripture; He doesn't want them emptying their minds. Leaders in the Emergent movement have succeeded in persuading those who practice centering prayer to put aside God's Word and focus on a blank wall!

Will practicing Eastern mysticism really help to open you up to a greater spiritual experience with God, or just the opposite? Since God opposes mysticism in any form, perhaps contemplatives are really experiencing visits from demonic spirits. Meditate on that!

In 1 Cor. 2:15-17 Paul informs us that we have "the mind of Christ." In Romans 12:2 he reminds us that God's people are not to kowtow to this world, "but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

In the words of William Hendrickson, "Even if we or a holy angel must be the object of God's righteous curse, were any of us to preach a gospel contrary to the one we humans previously preached to you, then all the more divine wrath must be poured out on those self-appointed nobodies who are now making themselves guilty of this crime."[/b][/color]

Footnotes:
1, What is Christian Gnosticism? - Got Questions website
2, The Gnostic Jesus, a Gnostic Christianity - Let Us Reason website
3, Luke 11:1-4 - Bible Gateway website
4, Interview With Rob Bell - Finding Rhythm website
© 2007 Marsha West - All Rights Reserved

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

elected wrote:
There is nothing wrong with contemplative prayer as long as you are led by the Holy Spirit, this has been an early tradition of christians. As far as i can spiritualy discern this form of prayer is being abused and has become an end to itself and not a means to reach God by faith.
DELETED



 2009/8/10 16:38





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